interesting take on DRM

[bill_mchale]

I may not be able to buy a kindle book without a kindle, but once I buy it, without DRM, I can easily convert it to run on a different device.

--
Bill

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Adobe DRM and Amazon topaz DRM and Sony DRM have not been broken. It is not a given that all DRM is broken.

Dale

What's not a given is whether there'll be enough people interested in a given product for crackers to get involved. So here is the conundrum: for ebooks to be profitable in the way publishers would like, a critical number of customers must be reached. But when it is, crackers will get involved.

DRM basically amounts to trying to prevent people from opening a box they own with a key they have. Those who create them hope to achieve it through technical obfuscation, and that is doomed to failure when a high enough number of eyes are looking. Or why do you think laws such as DMCA have been written?

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Dale, I don't think anyone ever said that all DRM schemes were broken (Though I pretty much can assure you that given enough resources pretty much any DRM scheme is breakable). I did, however, say that DRM would not stop a dedicated pirate. I do admit I pointed to all the references to removing DRM from applications as an example and if I implied that that was what I meant by stating that DRM cannot stop pirates, I apologize.

What I ultimately mean is that dedicated pirates, specifically those who are looking to somehow make an illegitimate profit off of a copyrighted work, will always find a way to break DRM and/or to get around it. Getting around it might be as simple as simply reading and typing the book into a new file.
There is no way to stop such pirates at the level of the actual ebook. The only way to stop such piracy is to actually find them and prosecute them.

Bill

In other words, surprise surprise, police work is involved. Not pseudo-science designed to, step by step, quietly rob people of their rights to fair use .

[Trenien]

Ok, I'll bite...

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

(Boy, why oh why do I do this?...)

As I suggested in my post, the fact that we don't presently have a GOOD DRM system for e-books is not an indicator that such a thing is mythical or impossible (as many others posters on this site would, in fact, suggest). The various DRM schemes being used by iTunes, for example, or by other content-rich websites, demonstrate that it is indeed possible to sell content and mitigate loss (again, the point is not to eradicate loss, which is impossible, but to keep it to acceptable levels).

The success of the system also requires buy-in, i.e., the paying public must agree that the system works for them, and therefore they do not go out of their way to circumvent it (example: Paid cable TV). Or you allow them a way to circumvent DRM--on iTunes, for example, by CD burning--that is acceptable to your public and your publishers.

Which means that in order to use the file you bought as you see fit, you have to accept a loss in quality.
I do not accept people thinking that iTunes' DRM are in any way fair as a fact. The reason for its success (relative) is the perceived ease of use (real or not, I'll leave that to others to decide) of the Apple integrated model. Basically the commercials have made it cool to own an ipod, and when you have one it's easy to use it with itunes. However, I must remind you that if you divide the number of songs sold by the number of ipods in use, you get less than an album's worth.
I find it hard to believe that most people's ipods (which can hold between tens and hundreds of albums) are filled music obtained through legitimate mean, call me a cynic if you want.

This requires trust on both ends: Both sides must trust that the other is not trying to rip them off, and that the arrangement is mutually beneficial. If either side does not have this trust, the system will break down--and right now, I think it's fair to say that in most cases there is virtually zero trust between book buyers and sellers in e-book publishing, making any DRM system between them virtually impossible.

About this, see my comment at the end.

Finally, DRM does not automatically mean "encryption," as so many assume. It is problems with encryption (tied to old PCs or OSs, mainly) that result in most of the reasons people do not like DRM. DRM systems tied to personal identification have historically worked much better, and allowed document transfer to new devices/readers with fewer problems.

As far as I am concerned, DRM that simply ties the document transaction to the purchaser is the best system yet. The system ties the link for the e-book to the transaction, to prevent others from downloading the same book... and once the authorized purchaser has the document, the need for DRM is considered over. I get paid. Customers can move or share the files as they wish, or do anything else covered under Fair Use. (This logic also depends on customer buy-in, and a measure of trust on the seller's part, to keep loss through sharing to a minimum.) That's the method I use on my site, it works for me (as an author/self-publisher), and I've heard few complaints.

Again, me and a few others have told you many times: neither what you describe nor what you use is DRM. The purpose of DRM is to prevent the customer to use the file in ways the editor doesn't agree with - which of course includes sharing. If you authorize customers to share as they wish, there are no DRM; a bit of watermarking, maybe.

I'll add that the very idea of DRM means the seller doesn't trust their customers to act within the law. So as long as it's there, there's no trust involved in the sale.

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by GingerTez

Personally, I like the iTunes system since they introduce iTunes Plus. I can download the files, convert them to MP3, and then use them on any of my other devices freely. Even the small hassle of burning the "standard" iTunes files to CD to allow me to then "rip" to MP3 isn't a problem because I like to have a backup of the files anyway.

Similarly with eBooks - once Adobe sort out their 6 device limit problem (the problem being that you can't deauthorise devices at the moment) i'll be happy with that too. At the moment I can download Adobe EPUB files that I've purchased from Waterstones (and Secure PDF files from Fictionwise) and put them on my PC, my wife's PC, my PRS-505 and on my wife's PRS-505. No problems with that at all.

I don't really have anything to add except that for my personal circumstances I have no problems with DRM so it's all (as always) a matter of perspective.

Cheers,
Terry.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that buying DRM free files from itunes costs a premium. If indeed I am right, that means that apple/the majors consider you have to pay them a specific amount of money to be able to enjoy the full width of your legal right (in this case the right to use something you purchased whichever way you see fit).

Isn't that racketeering?

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Trenien

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that buying DRM free files from itunes costs a premium. If indeed I am right, that means that apple/the majors consider you have to pay them a specific amount of money to be able to enjoy the full width of your legal right (in this case the right to use something you purchased whichever way you see fit).

Isn't that racketeering?

DRM-free files from iTunes do indeed cost extra. But they're also encoded at a higher bit-rate and sound substantially better when played on decent equipment. So... are you paying for lack of DRM or for higher quality? Or both?

Xenophon

[pdurrant]

When first introduced they cost more. There is now no difference in price between DRM tracks and non-DRM tracks at the iTunes Music Store.

Paul

Originally Posted by Trenien

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that buying DRM free files from itunes costs a premium. If indeed I am right, that means that apple/the majors consider you have to pay them a specific amount of money to be able to enjoy the full width of your legal right (in this case the right to use something you purchased whichever way you see fit).

Isn't that racketeering?

[GingerTez]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

When first introduced they cost more. There is now no difference in price between DRM tracks and non-DRM tracks at the iTunes Music Store.

Paul

Yup, that's right. I was pleasantly surprised recently when I downloaded iTunes Plus tracks at the 'standard' iTunes price.

[HappyMartin]

OK, so the intention of DRM is not to prevent piracy. By piracy I mean the copying and distributing and use of copyright material outside the given terms of the copyright. What then is DRM for?

Dont tell me how it is not effective, that is beside the point, I am talking intention. A speed limit sign does not prevent people from speeding even though the intention is to limit speed.

It is very likely I am missing something here but what?

I put locks on my doors. The intention is to protect my stuff. It causes me inconvenience and I still run the risk of getting my things stolen. Still my intention was to safeguard my stuff, not to inconvenience myself.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

OK, so the intention of DRM is not to prevent piracy. By piracy I mean the copying and distributing and use of copyright material outside the given terms of the copyright. What then is DRM for?

Dont tell me how it is not effective, that is beside the point, I am talking intention. A speed limit sign does not prevent people from speeding even though the intention is to limit speed.

It is very likely I am missing something here but what?

I put locks on my doors. The intention is to protect my stuff. It causes me inconvenience and I still run the risk of getting my things stolen. Still my intention was to safeguard my stuff, not to inconvenience myself.

Well, there are a couple of problems with your analogies. The speed limit analogy, as I pointed out earlier, does not actually consist on placing a limit on your rights since you have no legal right to drive; it is a priviledge granted by the state. The state therefore reserves the right to regulate it any way it sees fit.

When you put locks on your door, you are inconveniencing yourself, but are not in fact restricting the rights of anyone but yourself and your family.

As for what the purpose of DRM; its simple, there are two possible solutions. The first solution is that it provides a false sense of security to the distributors of digital media. The second possible solution is that it is a way for the Media industry in question to limit fair use in such a way as to make them more money. Consider what does not happen when DRM is in play; no one is likely to loan a book because it means loaning the reader the book is on as well. How many more copies of Harry Potter could have been sold if everyone who read it had to buy their own copy? Likewise, it is also being used to tie people into devices; Kindle and Sony PRS owners will have to continue buying Kindles and PRS's if they want to continue to have access to their DRM'd books.

--
Bill

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

OK, so the intention of DRM is not to prevent piracy. By piracy I mean the copying and distributing and use of copyright material outside the given terms of the copyright. What then is DRM for?

Dont tell me how it is not effective, that is beside the point, I am talking intention. A speed limit sign does not prevent people from speeding even though the intention is to limit speed.

It is very likely I am missing something here but what?

I put locks on my doors. The intention is to protect my stuff. It causes me inconvenience and I still run the risk of getting my things stolen. Still my intention was to safeguard my stuff, not to inconvenience myself.

That's right, 'the' purpose of DRM is not to prevent piracy, although that is a purpose.

The purpose of DRM is to keep control of digital media in the hands of the rights-holder so as to maximize their revenue stream. Part of this is preventing piracy, but that's only part. A much bigger part is tying purchases to specific users, devices and accounts; that way if someone wants to access the content through a device that's not authorized they have to re-buy it even though the device is perfectly capable of accessing the content.

It's things like DVD region coding.

Mobipocket insisting on being the exclusive DRM format on any dedicated reader.

This isn't stopping piracy, this is limiting use to maximize revenue.

[HappyMartin]

OK, I buy that. I always, in my naivety, thought that drm was an inconvenience to me but was aimed at curtailing piracy. Funny thing is I am getting into the swing of reading a book and then deleting it. I regard the book as I do a movie I go to see.

[Sallytrafic]

As a complete newbie and struggling to come to terms with everything and this includes Sony that has decided not to be compatible with Apple (so I'm using Calibre), DRM just adds another layer of complexity.

I have no idea how to buy a book from Sony, if I did I have no idea if it would work on my reader as I'm not using library. Will DRM get in the way?

If I buy a book from somewhere else is it going to work, will I be able to change its format. Will DRM get in the way?

So if someone says 'psssst here are some illegal downloads that you can use on your reader' what am I going to do .... say no thank you? Its not that I don't want to buy its just that 'they' have made it too difficult.

As of today I haven't managed to buy a single ebook, nothing I've read in this thread convinces me that I should. After all I know that my reader is not forever, at sometime I will need an upgrade will any purchased books transfer? I own books that are 80 years old, they still work, 8 years might be the limit for my reader. I reckon my eyes (and the rest of me) might last considerably longer than my reader. I bought my reader to make books portable it seems I might have fallen at an early hurdle.

[Lemurion]

Both Baen Books and Fictionwise offer unencrypted books in Sony Reader format. You can buy them with any computer that has a web browser, and they will work on your device.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

OK, I buy that. I always, in my naivety, thought that drm was an inconvenience to me but was aimed at curtailing piracy. Funny thing is I am getting into the swing of reading a book and then deleting it. I regard the book as I do a movie I go to see.

HappyMartin,
Sony, Amazon and the other DRM content providers want you to believe that the reason for DRM is to stop piracy. So don't feel naive that that was what you thought.

Ultimtely, they are looking at a way to squeeze every possible cent they can out of every book, tune or movie they sell. I don't know if you remember the DiVX DVD format from about 10 years back (not the current Media encoding system), its concept was to lock you into a player and then charge less for the movies, but the trick was, you had to pay extra if you wanted to watch it again say a year later. Thankfully that model flopped, it should give you an idea of what the big companies will do if we let them.

--
Bill