interesting take on DRM

[bill_mchale]

DigitalZen,
Was it DRM that stopped them? Or was it a serious crackdown by the recording industry where they forced Colleges and ISPs to turn over information on individual users? DRM never effectively stopped people from ripping CDs; so once ripped, they could have been placed on file sharing networks. It was the crackdown on the networks and the downloaders that finally forced people to start actually paying for the their music. If anything, the music industry seems to be slowly moving away from a DRM based model. Amazon (Which Ironically has the most restrictive DRM model for books) sells DRM free mp3's, and even iTunes are now selling some.

--
Bill

[pdurrant]

That wasn't DRM. That change has two causes

1) Very well publicised prosecutions by the RIAA
2) Legal downloads that were easy to use, reasonably priced, and with a wide selection.

DRM on music or books has no effect on their availability on the 'darknet'. Music gets ripped from CD-ROMs, and books get scanned and OCRed from paper copies.

DRM does nothing to prevent copying on a mass scale. It just inconveniences the people who actually pay for content.

Paul

Originally Posted by digitalzen

I think it has actually stopped a lot of college aged downloaders. Where as Kazaa was huge a few years ago among my peers, most are using iTunes now.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by digitalzen

I think it has actually stopped a lot of college aged downloaders. Where as Kazaa was huge a few years ago among my peers, most are using iTunes now.

That sounds to me more like they just decided to start paying for their stuff. I don't see how DRM would've convinced them to change. Maybe they perceive the issue differently now that they're out in the work world or maybe they just have the money now, but if they were used to non-DRMed content I don't see how we can credit the change to DRM. I doubt it was so alluring that they had to come over and experience that great Apple DRM. Not like it adds anything to your experience. It only detracts. Maybe if they switched because they could no longer find the stuff they wanted, but it's not like the pirate sites are suffering for lack of content. The stated purpose of DRM is to prevent uploading but it doesn't seem to be making much of a dent.

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/steal_this_comic.png

I don't understand why people complain about Audible's DRM. They are so very generous in that you can use the files on 6 devices (3 computers and 3 portable players). The files work on a bajillion different devices (PD, Mac, mp3 player, PDA, cell phone, GPS, Kindle) and if you upgrade and have reached your six limit, it's very easy to swap an old for a new. You can even burn the audiobooks into CD's.

What is the issue?

[bill_mchale]

Daffy4u,
What happens if Audible goes bankrupt and shutsdown? What if they decide down the road to only allow the registration of 4 devices? And of course, everytime I register a device about them, I am telling them a little bit about my listening habits. Its bad enough that they certainly track every tune I might download from them (I don't download any or use them but that is besides the point), but now they know how I listen to my music and maybe even when I listen, what I listen to when, etc.

So lets see, besides having lost the right to make clean copies of music I bought for my own use (See the earlier discussions about burning to CD and then re-ripping to mp3s), I have given audible the ability to gain information about my computers and how I use them.

--
Bill

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Daffy4u,
What happens if Audible goes bankrupt and shutsdown? What if they decide down the road to only allow the registration of 4 devices? And of course, everytime I register a device about them, I am telling them a little bit about my listening habits. Its bad enough that they certainly track every tune I might download from them (I don't download any or use them but that is besides the point), but now they know how I listen to my music and maybe even when I listen, what I listen to when, etc.

So lets see, besides having lost the right to make clean copies of music I bought for my own use (See the earlier discussions about burning to CD and then re-ripping to mp3s), I have given audible the ability to gain information about my computers and how I use them.

--
Bill

Even though you refer to music, Audible.com sells audiobooks.

If Audible shuts down or goes bankrupt and you have the books backed up on your computer, you would still have the audiobooks you purchased that play on all the devices you had when it shut down as well as on your computer and again the ability to burn CDs of the books (as I mentioned in my post - so you have not lost the right to make clean copies). If they downgrade to 4 devices (still generous), I don't believe it means suddenly means you can't use 2 of your devices if you have 6 (new members would be the ones affected). I'm a legacy member of Audible and can still use my original 7 year old portable device (even though they no longer have that device in their current list) and I pay a low monthly membership price that new people can't get. Audible has been very good at keeping up support for long time members even as technology changes.

As far as gaining information about your computers and how you use them, unless you walk into a store and purchase items with cash, someone, somewhere is going to know something about you (especially on the internet). It's very difficult to fly under the radar these days. Not every company is out to get you or do wrong by you.

[bill_mchale]

I am not saying they are out to get you, but they might get you by mistake (lets remember what happened when Sony tried to do DRM on CD's; they installed a root kit on people's PC's that made them vulnerable to hackers). I also know I can't hide everything about myself from the internet. I buy books and music online, and I accept that Amazon and others may use that information. But I do it with open eyes knowing what information they are collecting.

Audible or iTunes on the other hand actually have the ability to know what devices I am using, and possibly also to collect other information about me through their DRM enforcement software, information I don't know about.

Now, as for Audible being "generous" in allowing us to use music we "purchased" on 6 devices... I am glad you consider that generous. I buy a CD and I can play it on any CD player I want. My car, my wife's car, my home Stereo, my work stereo, a diskman, my computer, or the cd player at my parent's house.. or at my In-laws house. So lets see, I am at 8 different places... sure glad CD's don't limit you that way.

Ok, maybe I am being a little snarky here... but the point is, that I have yet to see a single benefit that has yet to come to the consumer because of DRM. Digital Music didn't take off because of DRM, it took off because of Napstar and then iTunes (which succeeds in spite of DRM). I think similarly, eBooks will succeed not because of but in spite of DRM.

--
Bill

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I don't understand why people complain about Audible's DRM. They are so very generous in that you can use the files on 6 devices (3 computers and 3 portable players). The files work on a bajillion different devices (PD, Mac, mp3 player, PDA, cell phone, GPS, Kindle) and if you upgrade and have reached your six limit, it's very easy to swap an old for a new. You can even burn the audiobooks into CD's.

What is the issue?

I see. So in my household, which has five computers and six portable music devices, I must, if I choose to use one of the ones that are *not* allowed under this highly-restrictive DRM process, I must WASTE TIME de-licensing one device and licensing the one I *wish* to use. Yep. I see it now. Audible's plan makes PERFECT SENSE.

.....

NOT!

[bill_mchale]

Oh one other thought... Why should I need to ask Audible's permission before I listen to music I purchased on a new device? Most people understand the concept of fair use and of piracy... the last thing we need is to empower corporations to limit our rights! What the heck is the point in limiting government powers if corporations have them instead?

--
Bill

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by delphidb96

I see. So in my household, which has five computers and six portable music devices, I must, if I choose to use one of the ones that are *not* allowed under this highly-restrictive DRM process, I must WASTE TIME de-licensing one device and licensing the one I *wish* to use. Yep. I see it now. Audible's plan makes PERFECT SENSE.

.....

NOT!

I don't believe Audible's policy is "highly-restrictive". I'm not ware of any company that uses DRM who allows this many devices. I'm sure someone will enlighten me.

If the couple of minutes it takes to deactivate and activate another device is too much, then maybe you should buy the book, burn the CD and rip it so your can play it on all the devices in your household (at the same time if you like). I'm sure you could find a way to make it work if you chose.

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Oh one other thought... Why should I need to ask Audible's permission before I listen to music I purchased on a new device? Most people understand the concept of fair use and of piracy... the last thing we need is to empower corporations to limit our rights! What the heck is the point in limiting government powers if corporations have them instead?

--
Bill

Audible doesn't care about what "music" you listen to or what device you use.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

Audible doesn't care about what "music" you listen to or what device you use.

Of course it does; why else does it require you to register the device? Essentially their 6 device limit gives them the power to say "No".

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Of course it does; why else does it require you to register the device? Essentially their 6 device limit gives them the power to say "No".

I'm just having fun with you because Audible is *books* not music, so they don't what device you listen to "music" on. You don't have to listen to their books on a music player (see the list of device types in my earlier post).

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I don't believe Audible's policy is "highly-restrictive". I'm not ware of any company that uses DRM who allows this many devices. I'm sure someone will enlighten me.

It is a poor excuse of one tyrant to claim that they are not as bad as another tyrant. And make no mistake about it, DRM is a form of tyranny. It offers us no benefit, but it constrains our freedom to act.

Ultimately, if they said I could register a 1000 devices at one time, it would make no difference. No organization, no company nor corporation should have the power to limit my legal fair use of material.

If the couple of minutes it takes to deactivate and activate another device is too much, then maybe you should buy the book, burn the CD and rip it so your can play it on all the devices in your household (at the same time if you like). I'm sure you could find a way to make it work if you chose.

Sure, you are pointing out that the DRM could be circumvented; but that is besides the point. I shouldn't need to circumvent it. I buy the book, or the music track, or what have you. There should be no constraint, no matter how minor it may seem, to the exercise of my fair use rights.

The rules regarding DRM in DMCA are a classic example of bad laws; they served only the special interest and not the interests of the whole (and ultimately, did little or nothing to stop the real pirates).

--
Bill

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Sure, you are pointing out that the DRM could be circumvented;

--
Bill

Since "CD Burning" is built into their own software (you can also use iTunes if you choose), I don't know that it's really circumventing.

I'm not convinced that all DRM is bad. If I were a writer (which I would never be because I hate writing), I'd want to make sure I was paid for my work. I like the idea of it being tied to the person not the device and I think Audible comes close to that (encryption tied to my name but I can move it around to various devices without too much trouble).