Would you be e-reading if DRM was unbreakable?

[Sydney's Mom]

I can't answer for Katsunami, but when I have created polls and omitted a very obvious answer, it was because I was thinking about the discussion of DRM, not really speaking to people who don't know or don't care.

[cromag]

First, if the DRMed reading apps were still free, I'd probably do more reading on my Android.

But, since I find that less than ideal, I'd go back to paper-based books at the library and the used book store. I'd wind up buying far fewer books.

Oh, and since I like SF, I'd still buy from Baen.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Sydney's Mom

I can't answer for Katsunami, but when I have created polls and omitted a very obvious answer, it was because I was thinking about the discussion of DRM, not really speaking to people who don't know or don't care.

Heh... The poll was an afterthought indeed, and I forgot that there might be people who wouldn't care about DRM, even on MR. If possible, a mod can remove the poll. The main question is: Would you buy DRM-ed ebooks, if you knew the DRM could not be removed?

I wouldn't. I'd only buy non-DRM-ed books, and hardcovers of my absolute favorites and drop the rest, in the same way as I did with DRM-ed games.

One of the easiest ways to create unbreakable DRM is to stream a book page by page. Yes, you can capture the pages and re-assemble the book, but I doubt many people will do that. It's too time consuming.

[Ntsimp]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

One of the easiest ways to create unbreakable DRM is to stream a book page by page.

That doesn't count. Amazon would never try it. No one here would buy books that were only delivered that way. It's an absurd, unworkable idea.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

One of the easiest ways to create unbreakable DRM is to stream a book page by page. Yes, you can capture the pages and re-assemble the book, but I doubt many people will do that. It's too time consuming.

So you could only read a book if you had a wifi/3g connection? Not going to happen in anybody's wildest dreams. Even google let's you read books offline.

[Atunah]

But it isn't about caring about DRM for some of us. I care very much, that is why I liberate all my books now.
But what choice would I have if I couldn't do it anymore. I don't have one. I have to read. Doesn't mean I don't know or care about DRM. I wish it wasn't there at all and I wish I wouldn't have to do all the liberating for worry about my library.
But again, some of us have no choices. I need to read. And I don't personally like reading out of copyright stuff much. Just a few selected.

So there are more levels of people than those that must fiddle with their books and liberate them all and those that never heard of DRM or care. There are a lot of us in the middle that care, but would still continue on buying as its all we can do at that point.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

One of the easiest ways to create unbreakable DRM is to stream a book page by page. Yes, you can capture the pages and re-assemble the book, but I doubt many people will do that. It's too time consuming.

Not necessarily.

http://www.playlater.tv/

There is an entire category of software, called screenscrapers, dedicated to *automatically* extracting data from computer displays. At its most basic, you aim it at an open window and it automatically does a screen capture, pages down, and repeats. The result is a folder-full of image files that can be read as a slideshow or OCR'ed.

Over the years I've seen commercial software for capturing audio, video, and text files. Basically, if you can put it on a PC screen, it can be captured with software. Worst case, if you keep it off PCs, somebody will sell a hardware capture device to spoof the DRM with a "man in the middle" capture.

In all likelihood, the only truly unbreakable DRM is making the product/service unusably cumbersome, so nobody wants it. If nobody wants it, nobody will crack it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Ntsimp

That doesn't count. Amazon would never try it. No one here would buy books that were only delivered that way. It's an absurd, unworkable idea.

Originally Posted by jgaiser

So you could only read a book if you had a wifi/3g connection? Not going to happen in anybody's wildest dreams. Even google let's you read books offline.

Why is everybody thinking that this will not happen?

There is Spotify, and other services that stream music, the gaming industry is gearing up to stream games, software is moving toward the cloud running in browsers (effectively streaming the software), and there are already some services that stream books, and you can only read them using their smartphone or tablet apps.

So tell me: why would no-one ever start doing this with books on a big scale?

I won't EVER buy a subscription to a book streaming service, just as I won't buy subscription services for software, games, or music. Nowadays, I buy only stuff that is completely independent from the seller, or can be made to, with little or no effort.

For example, Dragon Age: Origins has online capabilities and downloadable content for which an account is required if you have the "normal" version. However, its Ultimate CD provides all downloadable content, and you can "activate" it by setting a certain option in an ini file from 0 to 1, without ever creating an online account. Then the game will run completely offline.

Actually, huge problems with Dragon Age's DLC in 2009 was the first and final warning I needed to make me abandon any and all DRM. (I was hesitant about DRM/DLC on DA:O, but I couldn't resist buying it in the week of release after waiting for it for 5 years.) I've replaced Dragon Age: Origins with the Ultimate CD from 2012, and intend to sell or give away my original version.

Nowadays, if I can't make some stuff completely mine, forever, I don't want it. Basically, I want to be able to use the stuff I buy until the day I die. OK, I understand that games from 2009 may not be playable on any computer in 2024, but this does not alter the fact that I *can* play the game as long as I have, or preserve the means to run it, which can be saving an old computer, or running it in an emulator, somewhere down the line.

I require the same of my music and books. I (finally) accepted that digital content cannot be made 100% future proof, but I'll make durned sure that the seller is not going to interfere with me trying.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

There is an entire category of software, called screenscrapers, dedicated to *automatically* extracting data from computer displays. At its most basic, you aim it at an open window and it automatically does a screen capture, pages down, and repeats. The result is a folder-full of image files that can be read as a slideshow or OCR'ed.

I know, and of course you're right, but this is a LOT more work (and because of the OCR, error-prone) than just alfing(*) your books.

(*)That should be a word.

[cadele]

Couldn't face going back to paper again and I won't pirate, so that would leave me with non-DRM indie books and out of copyright. I expect I would eventually weaken and break down and buy a must-have DRM infested book, but I wouldn't be happy.

Just the thought makes me much happier about my vast TBR - suddenly an asset and not a nagging guilt after all.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by cadele

Just the thought makes me much happier about my vast TBR - suddenly an asset and not a nagging guilt after all.

Hehehe

Sometimes I actually think like that. "What does it matter that I have a few hundred bought but yet unread books, 24 Baen CD's and thousands of well-formatted public domain / classic books? That pile of books can provide me with reading material for the next 50 years if need be."

And then, I haven't even mentioned the hundreds of thousands of pirated books I could have in a matter of hours if I really wanted to.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Why is everybody thinking that this will not happen?

Because it won't. With video games and videos (and even protected music cds) there's no alternatives, many times. You can't fire up the ol' gerbil-powered gaming system and experience the latest games. So the bar before it gets too cumbersome for consumers to put up anymore with is quite high in those cases.

They have to toe the line with books precisely because paper books are still around. I hear even the very latest ones still have physical copies printed. And if ebooks become too cumbersome for people to easily consume, they'll go back to buying those paper books.

But make no mistake; it's a lack of convenience that would eventually drive most ebook readers back to paper. Not "unbreakable" DRM.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Because it won't. With video games and videos (and even protected music cds) there's no alternatives, many times. You can't fire up the ol' gerbil-powered gaming system and experience the latest games. So the bar before it gets too cumbersome for consumers to put up anymore with is quite high in those cases.

They have to toe the line with books precisely because paper books are still around. I hear even the very latest ones still have physical copies printed. And if ebooks become too cumbersome for people to easily consume, they'll go back to buying those paper books.

But make no mistake; it's a lack of convenience that would eventually drive most ebook readers back to paper. Not "unbreakable" DRM.

Isn't it the same with ebooks? What do the publishers care if the people buy ebooks or paperbacks; they'll get their money in both cases. I think publishers wouldn't mind making the usage of ebooks so cumbersome that people actually *would* return to paper books.

In my case, if the Big Six would do something like that, I'd be S.O.L with regard to reading any mainstream works. Apart from very few, all of the stuff I read is published by the Big Six or one of their subsidiaries.

It's not really possible to say "It's a free market, so there will be DRM-free publishers", because the Big Six hold the rights to just about any mainstream (fantasy) novel I can think of.

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by Ntsimp

That doesn't count. Amazon would never try it. No one here would buy books that were only delivered that way. It's an absurd, unworkable idea.

I'm pretty sure that Amazon wouldn't do that, but I'm equally sure that they would still have plenty of customers if they did. I won't buy a digital product unless I know beforehand that I can defeat the DRM, but it's obvious that many others feel differently. The inconvenience that DRM creates is felt differently by different people and if Amazon had a system of wirelessly delivering pages to Kindles that matched the current speed of paging, most customers would continue exactly as they are now.

My guess is that both Amazon and Adobe have found a sweet spot. The barrier to casual copying is reasonably high, but those willing to invest more time and effort into e-reading can overcome the DRM. I've no real way of knowing, but my gut feeling is that the ebook industry sells more books with "leaky" DRM than if they either had no DRM or unbreakable DRM. There are certainly those in the industry that are incensed enough by the thought of people pirating their stuff that they'd even accept reduced sales to stop it, but based on the other decisions they've made, I don't think Amazon will do that.

To answer the original question, if DRM were to become unbreakable, I would stop buying ebooks. I still have a number of copyright-free ebooks on my TBR list and free ebooks are easy enough to come by that I don't think my reading habits would have to drastically change. There is probably a price point below which I would be willing to pay for DRM encumbered books, but it's much lower than prices are now.

[Ravensknight]

If unbreakable drm came into being, I'd be investing in a good scanner and then buy used paperbacks at amazon for 1 penny, chop and scan and then clean up with sigil or some such.

I'm not paying money for something that I don't control. Unless it is something like Netflix :-)

[anabolina]

Hmmm, Ravensknight, I really like that idea about an ebook Netflix.

IDK whether I would digitize my own books. It seems difficult and I'm too lazy to remove DRM as it is. I already don't spend my money on DRM'd books mostly because of this. If there was a way to buy non-DRM mainstream books, I'd buy them again. Instead, I mostly buy from Smashwords and Baen and will read the occasional free out of copyright, sample book, or fanfiction (if my sister swears it's great). I don't have time to read all the books in my Calibre as it is, so there's more than enough no-DRM books and reading material out there for me.