interesting take on DRM

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

DRM is an attempt to control piracy.

No, it isn't.
It never has been.

I think that to lock 128kbps AAC songs to "control" the flow of 320kbps MP3 tunes, is a bit silly. It sounds like to close motorways as an attempt to control naval traffic...

[GingerTez]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

BTW: Regarding iTunes, since in fact it is relatively easy for most people to burn a CD, or (like I do) use the software on my PC to simply play the song after purchase, and line-record into a new MP3 file, I consider iTunes' encryption system to be fairly easy to circumvent.

I find it interesting that you use the word circumvent...

My opinion is that burning to CD is actually part of the iTunes DRM as a whole and that doing this isn't actually circumventing anything. In addition with iTunes Plus you don't even need to burn to CD - you can just right-click the file and select "Convert to MP3".

The problem with applying this same concept to eBooks is that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent accepted standard to MP3 yet. Remember that ANY music player can play MP3 files in addition to their own specific DRM'd files (not forgetting of course that Microsoft have their own WMA DRM system). There needs to be a standard file type (PDF, EPUB, eReader, who knows?) that ALL readers can use and then as long as individual company's DRM'd books can be converted to that format we'll all be happy.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will happen. MP3 files were around before the increase in popularity of MP3 players and so there was already a file format that could be classed as "standard". Because eBook readers are already on the market I think it's unlikely that such straightforward accessibility (and conversion) will ever be legally possible

Cheers,
Terry.

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Think of DRM like a speed limit.

In order to keep drivers from killing pedestrians and other drivers, a speed limit is created to regulate traffic. Sure, there will always be people who will break the speed limit, and many will get away with it. But if the majority are stopped from speeding, and as a result, significant lives are saved, the speed limit is considered a successful tool, and endorsed by the public whose lives it preserves.

Example of a BAD speed limit that defeats its purpose: 20MPH on a 8-lane highway with minimal traffic. And if it cannot be enforced, the highway is closed.

Example of a GOOD speed limit that serves its purpose: 20MPH in a school zone, with a few posted officers for enforcement.

DRM, when approached as in the GOOD fashion (unlike today's DRM, which is mostly like the BAD example), is workable. The goal is to mitigate loss to an acceptable level, and to accept that you will never absolutely prevent it.



Thanks... a lot...

Wait.
DRM is not at all a law, like speed limit is. You can say copyright is like to have a speed limit (but I have to see a copyright violation to kiil people, yet...).

DRM is a bogus enforcement for it.

Today's DRM is a BAD one because it's like to forbid prudent drivers to buy sports cars and to drive in 8-lane highways. And, in the meantime, to make pay the toll twice for the roads the don't use.
Pirates, OTOH, drive as they like and how fast they like.
If officers can catch them, they go on trial, if not, they just speed away...

Every "Right Management" which gives all the rights to the same side, an nothing to the other one, is wrong. And cannot work, whether analog or digital.



PS: I said they'll make you pay for the new enforcement office, because AFAIK you're an American tax payer. Of course every other US citizen will have his share of the cost...

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by GingerTez

At the moment I can download Adobe EPUB files that I've purchased from Waterstones (and Secure PDF files from Fictionwise) and put them on my PC, my wife's PC, my PRS-505 and on my wife's PRS-505. No problems with that at all.

If this Christmas you'll want a brand new Linux PC for you and your wife, and and a couple of iRex DR1000, you'll have to repay for every book, event if you didn't read them.

Still no problems?

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Personally, I can barely tell the difference between an MP3 recorded at or above 128Kbps and an LP. For those who not only can tell the difference, but are bothered by it, my only suggestion is to avoid MP3s altogether... they will never equal the quality of an LP or CD, by design. MP3 and quality should not even be in the same room together.

Steve, the whole point I am making here was that even if one was perfectly satisfied with the listening experience of a first generation mp3, one that was made after burning an mp3 to a CD and then reripping it to an mp3 was going to be more significant. You may not be able to hear the difference but others can.

Re the DCMA, remember that its definition of DRM is dictated by the recording industry and their rather limited definition of DRM. Just because they say monkeys are the only primates around, doesn't make it so.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. As far as I know you are the only person I know of who has your relatively broad concept of what DRM means. As I said earlier, I think very few, if any legitimate users would object to controls on obtaining books they had not yet purchased. But ultimately, it is the controls on how we use a book (or music or TV or whatever) after we purchase it that we object to. More specifically, its those specific attempts to curtail our use via technology that we refer to when we talk about DRM. So, I am not going to disagree with what your proposed scheme but I am not going to agree that it really constitutes DRM.

--
Bill

[orwell2k]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/steal_this_comic.png

Whilst the DRM discussion is interesting and the whole issue very frustrating, I just wanted to say cool cartoon! Very Cool!! It's funny 'cos it's true!

Three beers (and a wave) for you!

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Adobe DRM and Amazon topaz DRM and Sony DRM have not been broken. It is not a given that all DRM is broken.

Dale

I suspect that the Sony and Amazon topaz DRM haven't been broken is due the the lack of perceived need to do so, rather than difficulty. Since these are single reader type DRMs, you have to spend money to buy the device first. Since you have the device anyway, the DRM is not obtrusive, unless and until the vendor drops these versions of DRM, and then there'll be a huge demand to hack the particular DRM....

[TallMomof2]

Re the Apple DRM circumvention:

For the heck of it I purchased my first and only song from iTunes. It is a duplicate of a song I already own from DRM-free Amazon (ironic that they sell DRM-free MP3s). Amazon's MP3's are encoded at 256 kbps so they're starting at a higher quality. The Amazon MP3 was imported into my iTunes library. I then sent the original iTunes version and the converted the Amazon MP3 to my Touch and listened to both. There was a slight difference in quality when I listened through my high-end earphones but almost undetectable through low-end earphones (the ones that come with the Touch).

Next I converted the iTunes song to MP3 and played it and the Amazon version first through my PC with high-end speakers and the differences were very obvious to me. Next I moved both MP3s to a Creative Zen MP3 player and I could still tell a difference with my both high-end and low-end earphones. Then I moved the MP3s to my Kindle and I really couldn't tell much difference between the two.

IMO, don't buy from iTunes unless you're are 100% wedded to Apple. If there is any possibility of moving to a different system you're better off either buying CDs and ripping or buying DRM-free higher bitrate MP3s.

[Richard Herley]

Originally Posted by orwell2k

Three beers (and a wave) for you!

I make that six beers!

[GingerTez]

Originally Posted by Format C:

If this Christmas you'll want a brand new Linux PC for you and your wife, and and a couple of iRex DR1000, you'll have to repay for every book, event if you didn't read them.

Still no problems?

You've quoted me slightly out of context as I go on to stress (in italics) that I'm talking about my personal circumstances. Personally, although I am a VERY technical person, I wouldn't buy a Linux computer - but if I did I wouldn't expect any support from commercial companies like Sony or even Apple. They are all about mass market support and distribution and with about 2% of the desktop market being Linux and over 90% being Microsoft I honestly wouldn't expect them to make much of an effort. This would obviously annoy me if I was a Linux user but I'm deliberately NOT a Linux user by choice (I dual-booted an ubuntu Linux distro last year and tried to use it as my main OS but it still isn't accessible enough for me - not even with my years of using command lines in DOS, Unix, VMS and my accumulated years of using various Windows, Amiga, and Apple PCs too.

To get back to my point - Adobe are currently working on fixing the 1 bug that I think exists in their DRM, the inability to remove authorisation from a device and reassign it to another. Being able to have my eBooks on up to 6 devices is plenty enough for me!

Before the 'digital age' we had to buy a book and read it, then we could pass it on to someone else. Now I can authorise my wife's reader and my own and we can both read it at the same time. It's the same with MP3s, when I had to buy a CD I could only listen to it on whichever device it was playing but with iTunes files (and other formats) I can play them on any device with a minimum of fuss/conversion so I'm not breaking the law when I have it on my home PC, my work laptop, my iPod, and in the car on a CD-R.

I'm not trying to say DRM is good, I guess what I'm trying to say is... stop wingeing! Things are better than they could be and I'm sure I'm not being too unrealistic when I say it'll only improve because all the companies that make eBook readers will see sense eventually. After all, iTunes introduced iTunes Plus because they saw there was a market for better quality download files which could be converted directly to DRM-free MP3 within iTunes itself (no need to burn). If Apple can see sense then why not Sony, Amazon, and the rest?

Cheers,
Terry.

[bill_mchale]

Terry,
Did it ever occur to you that Apple saw the light because of all the complaints?

Ultimately, publishers of ebooks will only be influenced by one thing, and that is customers who refuse to support DRM based product. If you don't buy the DRM'd books, but rather buy books lacking DRM, then publishers that don't use DRM will expand and those who don't will be forced to change their bad habits to catch up.

I personally don't support individuals removing DRM from books; in part because it is illegal in some countries, but mostly because it sends a message to publishers that the public is willing to accept DRM on their books. If you feel you need to buy titles that are DRM'd, then as always, I strongly suggest buying books in the eReader format. Its DRM does not limit the devices you use except for the the fact that no current dedicated readers or Linux Distros are supported (Are you listening Fictionwise?).

Ultimately, I could care less about support from any large corporation. Whether I use Linux, Windows, OS-X or some more obscure OS, their support can always be ended. Large corporations can and do fail, and even more frequently they do end support for products. If Sony decided to get out of the ebook business, an awful lot of people could end up with books that will not be transferable to other devices.

--
Bill

[GingerTez]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

If you don't buy the DRM'd books, but rather buy books lacking DRM, then publishers that don't use DRM will expand and those who don't will be forced to change their bad habits to catch up.

My view on this is that if nobody buys the DRM books (i.e. Adobe DE, Mobipocket, Amazon Kindle) and people only ever buy the eReader version then Sony, Amazon, Adobe, etc will just think there's no market and we'll be left with Fictionwise being the only site left with no hardware support for our 20 year old eBook readers.

Still, I'm starting to get quite ranty on this thread so I'll shut up after this.

I am in the middle of writing a letter to Sony asking them to consider supporting the eReader format - but I don't have so much information on the eReader DRM. The following questions are for information, not to support or oppose any argument....

(1) The eReader DRM appears to be tied into your credit card number and your name so what happens when (a) you change your credit card company and (b) you get married? (Not you personally, unless Bill is short for Wilhelmena )

(2) Taking (1) into account... if you buy some eReader eBooks and change your credit card or your name and then buy some more, how does your PC ask for the details. Is it authorised once (meaning you need to 'reauthorise' to switch back to reading your old books) or does it ask for the security details each time you read the book? Reading the details on the Adobe site it appears that the devices are authorised based on your Adobe account and the email address that it is tied into can be easily changed without having to reauthorise the devices or books.

Seeing as the answers to these questions are really to help me write a letter to Sony I don't mind if they're answered via PM by anyone who knows...

Cheers,
Terry.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by GingerTez

My view on this is that if nobody buys the DRM books (i.e. Adobe DE, Mobipocket, Amazon Kindle) and people only ever buy the eReader version then Sony, Amazon, Adobe, etc will just think there's no market and we'll be left with Fictionwise being the only site left with no hardware support for our 20 year old eBook readers.

Trust me, Sony, Amazon and the publishers will follow the money. After all, when Beta-Max failed, Sony didn't claim that there was no market for video tape players; they ultimately adopted the VHS standard like everyone else.

Besides, you can buy DRM free books for the Kindle and the Sony reader. The point here is to force them with our dollars to offer DRM free books, not to drive them out of business. In many cases, it is the publisher, not the vendor who demands DRM on their books.

In any case, we have several other vendors making ebook readers now and I suspect that the number will probably continue to grow in the near future. If Amazon and Sony dropped out, I think the volume of business that the iPod Touch seems to be generating for fictionwise would ensure that other book sellers got into the market.

Still, I'm starting to get quite ranty on this thread so I'll shut up after this.

I am in the middle of writing a letter to Sony asking them to consider supporting the eReader format - but I don't have so much information on the eReader DRM. The following questions are for information, not to support or oppose any argument....

(1) The eReader DRM appears to be tied into your credit card number and your name so what happens when (a) you change your credit card company and (b) you get married? (Not you personally, unless Bill is short for Wilhelmena )

No problems here.. I am already married .

Having not bought any DRM'd books, I can only speculate. But based off of the information on the eReader and fictionwise website, it appears that the your name and credit card number essentially form a key that is used to encrypt and decrypt the ebook. Once you purchase a book using that key, that key will always unlock the book. So if you change your name (for any reason) or get a new credit card, it will change your key for future purchases, but for past ones. I am not sure how they handle it in software, but they might allow you to store more than one key; if so the book will then automatically be decrypted when you open it (At least, that is how I would implement it).

(2) Taking (1) into account... if you buy some eReader eBooks and change your credit card or your name and then buy some more, how does your PC ask for the details. Is it authorised once (meaning you need to 'reauthorise' to switch back to reading your old books) or does it ask for the security details each time you read the book? Reading the details on the Adobe site it appears that the devices are authorised based on your Adobe account and the email address that it is tied into can be easily changed without having to reauthorise the devices or books.

Seeing as the answers to these questions are really to help me write a letter to Sony I don't mind if they're answered via PM by anyone who knows...

Cheers,
Terry.

I am afraid, I don't know the answer to those specific questions... maybe people who have read DRM content from ereader can answer that one?

Cheers.

--
Bill

[Selzernium]

Originally Posted by GingerTez

My view on this is that if nobody buys the DRM books (i.e. Adobe DE, Mobipocket, Amazon Kindle) and people only ever buy the eReader version then Sony, Amazon, Adobe, etc will just think there's no market and we'll be left with Fictionwise being the only site left with no hardware support for our 20 year old eBook readers.

Still, I'm starting to get quite ranty on this thread so I'll shut up after this.

I am in the middle of writing a letter to Sony asking them to consider supporting the eReader format - but I don't have so much information on the eReader DRM. The following questions are for information, not to support or oppose any argument....

(1) The eReader DRM appears to be tied into your credit card number and your name so what happens when (a) you change your credit card company and (b) you get married? (Not you personally, unless Bill is short for Wilhelmena )

(2) Taking (1) into account... if you buy some eReader eBooks and change your credit card or your name and then buy some more, how does your PC ask for the details. Is it authorised once (meaning you need to 'reauthorise' to switch back to reading your old books) or does it ask for the security details each time you read the book? Reading the details on the Adobe site it appears that the devices are authorised based on your Adobe account and the email address that it is tied into can be easily changed without having to reauthorise the devices or books.

Seeing as the answers to these questions are really to help me write a letter to Sony I don't mind if they're answered via PM by anyone who knows...

Cheers,
Terry.

bill_mchale answered correctly 1

But to recap:

1) It doesn't matter if you change your Name/CC, you can still use the old name/cc to open your files... provided you have the name/cc somewhere...

Extra info : Now IF you lose the file AND the CC(name) for what ever reason then in order to open the book(old) with a new/replacement name/cc you have to make a new purchase [another book ] with the new CC/name so as to activate the new name/cc so it can open the old book (after having re d/l) and this new/different book.

2)
a) You only need to use the Name/CC the first time you open your book and the application doesn't call home - like ADE - to open/activate the book, and activated book remains so unless you reinstall OS and the application*(?)[you see the encryption wholly lies within the file and the key is Name/CC]

If you purchase several books same time you only need to use the name/cc for the first book the rest are opened automatically...

b) You can have books in your library that are encrypted with different name(s)/CCs and the application will open them simultaneously, as i said above every time you try to open a new- previously unopened - book the application asks the name/CC, then that book remains open/active as long as you don't reinstall OS or Application*(?).

In fact my self have books in my library encrypted with two - different - CCs (I lost my old cc last december) and I can read all my books without hassle.

Edit :
In short every name/CC will open the books purchased with it i.e. old name/cc will open the old books and new name/cc will open new books purchased with it
[exception in case of emergency and request of change of name/cc (see Extra info above)].

Hope this helps

Best regards


(*) I am not sure If reinstalling the application causes loss off activation haven't tried that!

[digitalzen]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Steve,
I am just curious, since DRM will never stop dedicated pirates, what would the purpose of a properly designed and implemented DRM?

--
Bill

I think it has actually stopped a lot of college aged downloaders. Where as Kazaa was huge a few years ago among my peers, most are using iTunes now.