interesting take on DRM

[Nate the great]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/steal_this_comic.png

[bill_mchale]

Nate,
While, I sympathize with the intent of the cartoon, I am not a fan of going to jail . As a result, my solution will be simple. If it is DRM'd, I will not buy it.. period!. There are plenty of books out there, even newer titles, that lack DRM. The best way I can show my displeasure is to only buy non DRM'd books. Fictionwise's multiformat will get my support; Kindle and Sony and others will not.

--
Bill

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Nate,
While, I sympathize with the intent of the cartoon, I am not a fan of going to jail . As a result, my solution will be simple. If it is DRM'd, I will not buy it.. period!. There are plenty of books out there, even newer titles, that lack DRM. The best way I can show my displeasure is to only buy non DRM'd books. Fictionwise's multiformat will get my support; Kindle and Sony and others will not.

--
Bill

Sorry, but by the logic of Secretary Paulson and Fed chairperson Bernanke, by refusing to buy, you are stealing sales from deserving RIAA members and are therefore pirates! Go turn yourself in and take your punishment!

Derek

[Over]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Nate,
While, I sympathize with the intent of the cartoon, I am not a fan of going to jail . As a result, my solution will be simple. If it is DRM'd, I will not buy it.. period!. There are plenty of books out there, even newer titles, that lack DRM. The best way I can show my displeasure is to only buy non DRM'd books. Fictionwise's multiformat will get my support; Kindle and Sony and others will not.

--
Bill

And then they will say that ebooks don't sell, it's a bad business, terminate it and here we go to the pBook age again.

[HappyMartin]

Originally Posted by Over

And then they will say that ebooks don't sell, it's a bad business, terminate it and here we go to the pBook age again.

Deja Vu all over again as Y Berra once said. About 15 years ago the photographic industry was going nuts over the introduction of digital cameras. The complaints were that the feel was not the same as film, that the quality was not good, the devices too expensive and would never catch on nor become reliable enough.

Unless the world economy totally tanks there is no way our beloved readers will fail. The DRM thing will get sorted out as will format issues and so on.

I don't often re read books so for me it is not an issue but reading the thread on re reading it seems lots of people do. DRM as a principle is not the problem. The problem is the hoops we are sometimes forced to jump through for DRM.

[Over]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

Deja Vu all over again as Y Berra once said. About 15 years ago the photographic industry was going nuts over the introduction of digital cameras. The complaints were that the feel was not the same as film, that the quality was not good, the devices too expensive and would never catch on nor become reliable enough.

Unless the world economy totally tanks there is no way our beloved readers will fail. The DRM thing will get sorted out as will format issues and so on.

I don't often re read books so for me it is not an issue but reading the thread on re reading it seems lots of people do. DRM as a principle is not the problem. The problem is the hoops we are sometimes forced to jump through for DRM.

I see your point, but I don't think we can correlate both cases.

With digital pictures, the only real problem was the digital camera's price (but only at the beggining, and even so, there were much more expensive conventional cameras too) and the photo quality. Both things common sense says will be solved in time. There was a bonus: digital pictures = 0$ cost.

To read a pBook, you don't have to buy a device. That's the first difference. The price of the ebooks is litle lower than the pbooks (many times it's the same price!). And I don't really see this go away for a very long price. Companies couldn't charge a digital photo, but they can charge ebooks and will do so. They want profit, after all.

But, most important, reading isn't as mainstream as photo shooting. This means that ereader and ebook progress will be, probably, slower.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by Over

I see your point, but I don't think we can correlate both cases.

With digital pictures, the only real problem was the digital camera's price (but only at the beggining, and even so, there were much more expensive conventional cameras too) and the photo quality. Both things common sense says will be solved in time. There was a bonus: digital pictures = 0$ cost.

To read a pBook, you don't have to buy a device. That's the first difference. The price of the ebooks is litle lower than the pbooks (many times it's the same price!). And I don't really see this go away for a very long price. Companies couldn't charge a digital photo, but they can charge ebooks and will do so. They want profit, after all.

But, most important, reading isn't as mainstream as photo shooting. This means that ereader and ebook progress will be, probably, slower.

I don't agree with this. I bought my first digital camera 13 years ago, a tiny little camera with images less than 1 mb and recording in VGA format. That camera cost me $800 AUD. It has not been until the past five years or so that the image quality of digital photography has matured and prices have become affordable that the technology has really gained mainstream acceptance. E-reading technology will mature in the same manner and in ten years time will be just as mainstream as digital photography techonolgy is now.

Karen

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Over

And then they will say that ebooks don't sell, it's a bad business, terminate it and here we go to the pBook age again.

To quote Thomas Aquinas, "On the contrary". They will say that ebooks don't sell if all we read is PG books. And in fact they would be correct. On the other hand if we go out of our way to avoid DRM'd books, and buy non-DRM'd books, and buy them regularly, then the publishers of DRM'd books will notice their sales being stagnent while sales from publishers who sell DRM free books are climbing.

I think I read that Fictionwise sells something like 40,000 ebooks a month, Amazon I am sure sells more than that. Considering the number of dedicated ebook readers that are being produced, and the number of downloads of the eReader and Stanza software for the iPod Touch, it is getting hard for Publishers to deny the market exists. The ironic thing is that I believe that publishers of DRM free ebooks have also found their pbook sales increase as well .

--
Bill

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Over

With digital pictures, the only real problem was the digital camera's price (but only at the beggining, and even so, there were much more expensive conventional cameras too) and the photo quality. Both things common sense says will be solved in time. There was a bonus: digital pictures = 0$ cost.

Actually, it was your final point that was the real issue for camera sellers. With film or digital, you were still buying a cheap or expensive camera. But with digital, the existing film production and processing industry had no viable future... digital would potentially ruin an entire infrastructure (and its profits), and many camera makers (who had a vested interest in that infrastructure) tried to defend its imminent downsizing or demise.

This is essentially the same symbiotic relationship enjoyed by the literature and printing industries, and the angst involved with potentially ruining or removing one half of this partnership is the chief reason for the resistance to e-books.

Originally Posted by Over

To read a pBook, you don't have to buy a device.

That's true. On the other hand, you don't necessarily need to buy a dedicated reader to buy an e-book... and most of us in the industrialized world already have at least one device that can read e-books... a computer, a PDA, a cellphone.

"Buying a device" is, in a way, similar to the photo industry's attempt to keep digital camera users tied to paper prints: It's a way to continue to generate income for them, but it is not a necessary part of the process anymore... it is entirely optional. Because of this, the dedicated device market will probably remain a niche, though it can be a healthy one.

Note that I am hesitant to directly address the subject of the thread, in light of past history... as always, I do not support DRM as it is used by the print industry today, but I also believe that DRM in some form is not necessarily evil and world-destroying... it just needs the proper design and implementation to be effective...

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

I don't often re read books so for me it is not an issue but reading the thread on re reading it seems lots of people do. DRM as a principle is not the problem. The problem is the hoops we are sometimes forced to jump through for DRM.

Personally for me, DRM is the issue. If DRM actually stopped people from pirating books, then, perhaps I would accept DRM as a necessary evil. As it is, it can be shown, just from all the references in these forums to stripping DRM from books, that it is never going to stop a dedicated pirate.

Ultimately DRM serves only to restrict technically non-savvy people from being able to exercise their fair use rights to a work. Kindle Book buyers can only read their DRM'd books on a Kindle, Mobi Book Buyers can only read on a certain number of devices they register with Mobi. Want to convert to a different format so you can read on a different platform? DRM prevents that.

--
Bill

[bill_mchale]

Just a point... I think to a certain extent we have to be careful with respect to how far we take the photograph/book analogy. I know that there will probably always be film enthusiasts amongst photographers, but I suspect that in another decade or so, those enthusiasts will represent at most a tiny fraction of those taking photographs.

In contrast, I personally expect that paper books will probably retain a significant portion of the book market. As much as most of us like to think of the content being the thing we most care about, for many the medium is as important as the content. Its why to this day that many books are sold in hard back; there are many people who simply prefer to read books that way. There will, I suspect, always be a significant fraction of the reading public who will prefer to have their house filled with books. Heck, I like the idea myself... if only I had a 6000 square foot house as opposed to the 980 I actually have .

--
Bill

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Note that I am hesitant to directly address the subject of the thread, in light of past history... as always, I do not support DRM as it is used by the print industry today, but I also believe that DRM in some form is not necessarily evil and world-destroying... it just needs the proper design and implementation to be effective...

Steve,
I am just curious, since DRM will never stop dedicated pirates, what would the purpose of a properly designed and implemented DRM?

--
Bill

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Personally for me, DRM is the issue. If DRM actually stopped people from pirating books, then, perhaps I would accept DRM as a necessary evil. As it is, it can be shown, just from all the references in these forums to stripping DRM from books, that it is never going to stop a dedicated pirate.

Ultimately DRM serves only to restrict technically non-savvy people from being able to exercise their fair use rights to a work. Kindle Book buyers can only read their DRM'd books on a Kindle, Mobi Book Buyers can only read on a certain number of devices they register with Mobi. Want to convert to a different format so you can read on a different platform? DRM prevents that.

--
Bill

That's the point.
And there's where I agree with Steve Jordan too.

They call it DRM, but it's actually an Usage Limitation System, not at all a Right Management (e.g., it does not contain a specification to measure usage and compensate authors...)

DRM systems and copyright laws aim toward to make already paying people pay twice or more, not to get money the non-paying users.
Such a system has to be deleted ASAP.
And a real Rights Management system must take its place.

But, like I said before, it will cost some money to the publishers.
So it's better to lobby GW Bush to create a special presidential office to enforce today's laws. And make Steve Jordan pay for it.

[GingerTez]

Going back to the original post....

To me, although you'll end up a criminal both ways (at least in the USA), if you PAY for a DRM'd file then the author gets paid. If you download a cracked/pirated file then the author does not get paid.

I would much rather be able to justify myself on the moral issue not the legal issue. All my MP3 files have been bought or have been ripped from CDs that I physically own, all my eBooks (less then 20 so far) have been bought or officially downloaded for free. I have quite happily converted an eReader file (which I paid for) that was not available in any other format I could use to LRF breaking the DRM along the way. I believe there is morally nothing wrong with this because I will not distribute the book to anyone else.

I realise that my view may not be a popular one but I can't help it!!! I create and sell my own music so I can view this from the artist's side of the fence.

Cheers,
Terry.

[bill_mchale]

Again though, I would like to know what the purpose of this RRM (Real Rights Management).

Frankly, since the notion of fair use is, by necessity, not clearly legally defined, there can be no software solution to Rights Management that does not in some way or another constrict fair use.

--
Bill