What do you think of translated names in books?

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by hansl

...Streicher for Strider.

We have a local dialect that sounds a lot like German. A German person can understand that dialect; I think it would sound to a German like South African sounds to a Dutchman: as a "weird" version of the language. (It's often disparaged and called "reserve-German" by people who don't understand it. Those same people normally also don't understand German.)

In this local Dialect, "Streicher" would mean a type of fireworks. (The Dutch word is "strijker". It's ignited like a match, and after a few seconds it goes boom. If you're not fast enough in throwing it, it may actually kill you. Some are (were) as powerful as a small grenade

"The Shire" is a problem

In Dutch, "The Shire" is translated as "De Gouw". I wonder how they came by that name.

And also titles like "Master". "Herr Frodo" is an uncommon usage in German. If you talk to your master, you just call him "Herr" without a first name. But this is more like "Sir". A "Meister" is a craftsperson title in German, "Master" is an academic degree (in Worldish). So leave "Master" and add it to the glossary, making clear that it does not have an academic meaning here.

In Dutch it's translated as "Meester", but as you say, this denotes a level of expertise in a profession or as an academic title (but one would use "Master" more often in that case), or a teacher in school.

It is also a very old Dutch version of "Mister", but nobody uses that anymore nowadays. One would now use "Mijnheer" (quite formal; Dutch version of "My Lord"), or the less formal version "Meneer" (Dutch version of "M'lord"; same sort of contraction).

So, while "Meester Frodo" is correct, it's old and out of fashion; "Mijnheer Frodo" or even "Meneer Frodo" would be better, at least nowadays.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Bag End" is a linguistic joke by Tolkien. The British English term for a dead-end street is the entirely made-up French phrase "cul-de-sac", which means "the bottom of a sack". "Bag End" is Tolkien's literal translation of "cul-de-sac".

Didn't knew that

In harry potter, they changed fudge's name to lafadaise, then, when back to giving them the original name.

Sometimes, the original names would look out of place in french, hence, translation.
But, using a literal translation is not always the way to go. Done way to often in fantasy, and that sometimes fells awkward. Just don't sound good.
Then, Umbridge in harry potter is called Ombrage. Not literal, but don't sound good either.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's the problem: the pseudo-intellectuals assume it's a Latin word and try to sound clever by saying "octopi". Unfortunately for them, it's not Latin but Greek

I was interested to learn in a previous thread on this topic that American dictionaries allow "octopi" as a legitimate plural, whether, for example, my Chambers (British) English dictionary says:

pl ocˈtopuses, octōˈpodēs (or /-topˈ/); ocˈtopī is wrong.

I know no Latin or Greek other than thank you and you're welcome in Greek. I have seen octopi in print, but then again I have seen octopuses in print as well. I seem to recall noting that octopus was used as a plural also and have seen packages of whole octopodes labeled calamari. Who would think I had read so much about the subject and never even seen the word octopodes IIRC. Neither has my browser spellchecker BTW although I am certain the term is correct

If I ever order one from my fishmonger I will not be able to use anything but octopodes from now on. Just the way I am. Luckily I am not that fond of the stuff.

Helen

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In this local Dialect, "Streicher" would mean a type of fireworks.

"Streicher" is a component of "Landstreicher" (tramp). The connection is quite obvious and quite appropriate for the dubious reputation he has in Bree.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In Dutch, "The Shire" is translated as "De Gouw". I wonder how they came by that name.

A "Gau" was a Germanic settlement area, usually with natural borders. The term fits the Shire pretty well. Unfortunately in Germany the term "Gau" was brought back into service by the Nazis and therefore it couldn't be used.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

"Streicher" is a component of "Landstreicher" (tramp). The connection is quite obvious and quite appropriate for the dubious reputation he has in Bree.

A "Gau" was a Germanic settlement area usually with natural borders. The term fits the Shire pretty well. Unfortunately in Germany the term "Gau" was brought back into service by the Nazis and therefore it couldn't be used.

Thanks for the explanation. In that case, "Gouw" in Dutch makes sense. I didn't know about the German word "Gau", but then again, I don't speak or read German nearly as much as Dutch and English. I've never encountered the word "Gouw" or something similar outside of Lord of the Rings, so I assumed it was just a name made up for that book

[CommonReader]

I suppose that in the Netherlands the term is only familiar to historians who specialize in the early middle ages or the Nazi period. If it weren't for the Nazi usage the term would be equally obscure in Germany.
It shows that the translator put a lot of thought into the terms he/she used, though.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by hansl

And also titles like "Master". "Herr Frodo" is an uncommon usage in German. If you talk to your master, you just call him "Herr" without a first name. But this is more like "Sir". A "Meister" is a craftsperson title in German, "Master" is an academic degree (in Worldish). So leave "Master" and add it to the glossary, making clear that it does not have an academic meaning here.

Note 1: I support the translation of Streicher as derived from Landstreicher.
As for Master/Herr/Meister, allow some clarifications:
I'm wandering slightly away from my domain here, because I'm an examined translator of German, but into Polish and not English.

Master has a double meaning as far as I understand:
one fitting the Latin "dominus" the other a "master-of-arts" (would it be "artifex"?) which would explain the use of it as an academic title too; this is what hansl correctly refers to with "Meister" : a craftsman (as e.g. head of a guild)

(junger) Herr without a name might be uncommon now, but it's nevertheless the historically most appropriate translation for "master"/dominus as Sam would use adressing Frodo: adressing a noble or superior person.

The meaning Herr=Mister is modern.
Historically "Herr" is a nobleman.
A lower class male was a "kerl" (now "kerl" is simply meaning bloke)

The female equivalent "Frau" coming from "frouwe", a noble lost it's meaning too: Frau in a contemporary meaning is just "woman" or used in adressing a married woman. (Mrs.)
Translating "frouwe" in contemporary German results in "Herrin" (mistress)
A married lower class woman was a "wip" (Weib, contemporary rather respectless, "broad" in English?)
The same happened to the German equivalent of Miss.:
Frouwelin (literally "little mistress") modern Fräulein meant an unmarried noble girl .
A common unmarried female, simply a girl was a "Dirn(e)" (now Dirne is just a prostitute)

Examples:
In Goethes "Faust" „Hör, du mußt mir die Dirne schaffen!" (V. 2619)
In northern German dialect still known as "Deern" for a young girl.

I hope the history trip including digressions 'll be forgiven

[At_Libitum]

The difficulty with translations is not in finding the correct word, but to stay in spirit of the original language. Like Katsunami, my native tongue is Dutch, but I use English in most everything I do. And to be honest I cannot remember the last time I read a Dutch book

About Strider or Ranger, from the story I understood that his was a character that was always on the move. In that light, the Dutch translation 'Doler' is not that weird and I would say is actually totally 'in-character' as a 'Doler' is old Dutch for wanderer. Someone who is constantly on the move and never stays long in one place.

btw, Shire -> Gouw is also not that strange. A Gouw is old 'Germaans' (say 5th to 10th century) for a country area under regime of the Franks. So in spirit it is the same thing, it's a referral to a region but using a very old form. But it is still similar to a Shire or County.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The one thing that always jars me is the translation of names. It seems to be completely random: some names are not translated. Some names are "Dutchified", while other names are translated literally. Some are actually translated wrong. Most of the times, the translations appear to be foolish or out of character.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In Dutch, "The Shire" is translated as "De Gouw". I wonder how they came by that name.

Very easily, it's the official translation of "shire"...

Originally Posted by http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouw_%28Germaans%29

Een gouw (Latijn: pagus, Duits: Gau, Engels: shire, Fries: goa, Gronings: go, Limburgs: goew) is een territoriaal en institutioneel onderdeel van een Gallo-Romeins, Germaans of Slavisch stamgebied.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

So, while "Meester Frodo" is correct, it's old and out of fashion; "Mijnheer Frodo" or even "Meneer Frodo" would be better, at least nowadays.

I don't think "Master Frodo" is the same as "Meneer Frodo". I think "meneer" sounds too formal, while "master" is a touch less so. You mostly use "meneer" with a last name, while "master" is used with a first name.

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

What even bothers me more is with film adaptation of books that in the Dutch subtitles they use the Dutchified names. Again, I can understand it for films as Harry Potter (though it does annoy me) but with Lord of the Rings, IIRC, it just frustrates me and is the reason why I hardly ever watch films on tv but rather on dvd where I can either choose to have no subtitles or the English ones.

Yes, I do mind that too, very much. If I read the subtitles I'm constantly trying to figure out who they're talking about... The subtitles become a hindrance then. Besides, subtitles should be a translation of what they're saying, to help you understand the original language, not a translation of a translation.

There are some names I don't mind if they're translated (in books), especially if they do carry meaning or there's a good Dutch word for it. But some things just can't be translated well. Simply because we don't have a word for it. And some names shouldn't be translated. Period.

Take a book by Raymond E. Feist: Boekanier des Konings - The King's Buccaneer

Prince Arutha - Prins Arutha
(no translation, as it should be, as it's a fantasy name)

Prince Nicholas - Prins Valentijn
(why not Prins Nicolaas, which is a perfectly Dutch name?)

Squire Harry - Jonker Han
(why not Jonker Harry, which is a perfectly Dutch name?)

Margaret - Margreet
(close enough, no problems with that)

Abigal - Adelinde
(doesn't make any sense to translate that name, especially as Arutha also isn't translated)

Duke Martin conDoin - Hertog Martin van Schreiborg
(if you translate names, Martin should have been Martijn, and van Schreiborg doesn't make any sense at all...)

Amos Trask - Emus Trask
(what's wrong with Amos in a fantasy book, as Emus also is a fantasy name...)

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's the problem: the pseudo-intellectuals assume it's a Latin word and try to sound clever by saying "octopi". Unfortunately for them, it's not Latin but Greek

I was interested to learn in a previous thread on this topic that American dictionaries allow "octopi" as a legitimate plural, whether, for example, my Chambers (British) English dictionary says:

pl ocˈtopuses, octōˈpodēs (or /-topˈ/); ocˈtopī is wrong.

It may have been a Greek word once, but once absorbed into the unruly collective of "English" it is open to all forms bastardization.

[WillAdams]

Tolkien published an entire essay on this. It's in the _Tolkien Reader_:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tolkien_Reader

Unfortunately, this essay doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere --- did it get pulled from later editions?

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In Dutch, "The Shire" is translated as "De Gouw". I wonder how they came by that name.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouw_(Germaans)

It's actually a pretty good translation for 'Shire'.

[Katsunami]

That's actually a non-existing article

[LovesMacs]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

The version of War and Peace I read had the names anglicised. It didn't really bother me when I was reading it, but it does seem remarkably pointless. They were still in Russia. And it became annoying when I heard/read other people talking about the book, and didn't recognise the character names.

Was this the translation by Aylmer and Louise Maude? I remember that particular translation uses names like "Andrew" and "Mary". I generally liked that translation with the exception of the names.

One day I would like to read the Kojiki, which is about Japanese creation myths and ancient history. Unfortunately I'd have to read it in translation. Just read the complaints about the translated names in this review on Amazon and you'll see why I haven't yet tried to read this work.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

That's actually a non-existing article

Just add the end bracket (Or closing parenthesis as we are heading into grammar police territory ) missing in the link