Google Books wins -- Fair Use says Judge

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by crich70

But if Amazon didn't have the books available as ebooks many people who don't live near a bookstore would be denied access to a good part of the world's literature wouldn't they? And wouldn't that be discriminatory? i.e. Sorry you don't live in the right place for you to have access to a bookstore so you can't buy a copy of (insert book title). Granted not everyone even now has access to the internet for one reason or another, but many who had no access to books now do because of things like wireless internet and 3G. And what of the old books that google has saved digitally that aren't in copyright any longer? Are we supposed to let them all vanish because a publisher (who wasn't even born when the book was written) wants to keep it a strictly physical book and not an ebook?

I am not sure what you mean. I have lived in a few towns without bookstores in the last 15 years and I couldn't buy a book. Has this changed in some way?

Was I being discriminated against because none of the local stores sold books?

My current job is in a town where they don't even sell newspapers although you can of course have them mailed if you don't mind old news or access them online if you have a computer and internet access. Needless to say many of the people in this community don't.

Like you I would like to see all books as ebooks but I must defend the right of any vender/business to sell what they want to sell and how they want to sell it and for how much etc.

If a particular book is only available in paper format that is an inconvenience, not a violation of an inviolate right or discriminatory IMO.


Helen

[HomeInMyShoes]

I'm only concerned when the paper book is not published anymore and it's availability falls to nothing because the eBook isn't available either. There are many important books that fall into this category. I'm reading a couple next year for my reading challenge. They aren't old enough to fall into public domain, but weren't published in large quantities and aren't published anymore from what I can tell. That is the knowledge that will disappear because we don't protect our knowledge like we protect companies.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

I'm only concerned when the paper book is not published anymore and it's availability falls to nothing because the eBook isn't available either. There are many important books that fall into this category. I'm reading a couple next year for my reading challenge. They aren't old enough to fall into public domain, but weren't published in large quantities and aren't published anymore from what I can tell. That is the knowledge that will disappear because we don't protect our knowledge like we protect companies.

I don't generally see much knowledge disappearing if a particular book is hard to find or unavailable. Especially if the book is fiction. The enjoyment of that particular book is perhaps unavailable, but the knowledge itself? The authors perspective on the knowledge may be unavailable, but the factual knowledge is almost always available in non fiction works or by works from other authors. If it is practical or useful knowledge for us the masses, than chances are it resides in many places.

I am sure there are cases of actual knowledge with world changing aspects that have disappeared in times past do to destruction or hoarding etc. but I don't know that for sure obviously. I also don't know of any important information/knowledge disappearing entirely because an ebook or paper book is no longer being published. Enlighten me.

Helen

[ApK]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I don't generally see much knowledge disappearing if a particular book is hard to find or unavailable. [...] Enlighten me.

Helen

It doesn't need to be just facts. It could be the particularly effective argument, or the the example of an effective way to express ideas, or the lessons of powerfully expressed, world-view changing metaphor.

The 'knowledge' that would disappear may be precisely the same 'knowledge' that is lost when you learn the story of a book through Cliff's Notes or other summary, rather than actually reading the source material.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by ApK

It doesn't need to be just facts. It could be the particularly effective argument, or the the example of an effective way to express ideas, or the lessons of powerfully expressed, world-view changing metaphor.

The 'knowledge' that would disappear may be precisely the same 'knowledge' that is lost when you learn the story of a book through Cliff's Notes or other summary, rather than actually reading the source material.

Yes my opening sentence was a bit vague. And perhaps I was referring to knowledge a bit loosely as well. After all if I read a book I just know whatever is in it must be true

The fact that there are Cliff notes does not mean the knowledge, whether fact or subjective opinion is lost. Maybe the Cliff Note reader is missing things but the 'knowledge' still exists. The fact that a book is not currently published does not mean this either. Only if that book is not in existence and no one is alive who has read that book and no one has published anything or has knowledge of a particular something that was contained in that book is the knowledge truly lost. Yet I am sure this has happened, just I doubt this is the loss of knowledge that is so piously referred to so often.

Helen

[Greg Anos]

I would say the amount of knowledge lost would be approximately equivalent to the amount of money lost by said book's owners by third party piracy...

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I don't generally see much knowledge disappearing if a particular book is hard to find or unavailable. Especially if the book is fiction. The enjoyment of that particular book is perhaps unavailable, but the knowledge itself? The authors perspective on the knowledge may be unavailable, but the factual knowledge is almost always available in non fiction works or by works from other authors. If it is practical or useful knowledge for us the masses, than chances are it resides in many places.

I am sure there are cases of actual knowledge with world changing aspects that have disappeared in times past do to destruction or hoarding etc. but I don't know that for sure obviously. I also don't know of any important information/knowledge disappearing entirely because an ebook or paper book is no longer being published. Enlighten me.

Helen

I don't profess that I know any better than anyone else. One of my specific examples is a book from Belize which as a country doesn't publish many books in English. It's a story of the everyday life in Belize and would for me be valuable to my understanding of the area.

I think your point on fiction is exactly the point that disturbed me one day when a friend of mine responded "oh just some fiction" when I asked what he was reading. It's that response that it's just fiction and unimportant that makes me cringe. Good fiction is worthwhile and tells us about the human condition. I read a variety of stuff, including a lot of worthless fiction, but I hate when things are unavailable. We are at a point in our technological advancement that things shouldn't have to unavailable. As a society we treat much of our mid-century art and architecture with contempt and deem it as unimportant, preserving what is moldy and heralding what is new while leaving the rest to be bulldozed into oblivion. We lose our history. I see this in the world around us. A cultural study of a place includes its art its customs its music its literature its everything. We will lose how culture evolves by losing the books from certain eras.

I don't believe we should accept losing access anymore, but I see the accessibility of some things being reduced drastically.

[Cyberman tM]

Perhaps a good example/analogy to "lost books" might be a book (story, whatever) that Shakespear wrote and then lost.
Maybe it was no great loss back then (say it was an early work) but nowadays we'd love to have it, just to know more about the person writing the rest of what is now considered great works.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

I don't profess that I know any better than anyone else. One of my specific examples is a book from Belize which as a country doesn't publish many books in English. It's a story of the everyday life in Belize and would for me be valuable to my understanding of the area.

I think your point on fiction is exactly the point that disturbed me one day when a friend of mine responded "oh just some fiction" when I asked what he was reading. It's that response that it's just fiction and unimportant that makes me cringe. Good fiction is worthwhile and tells us about the human condition. I read a variety of stuff, including a lot of worthless fiction, but I hate when things are unavailable. We are at a point in our technological advancement that things shouldn't have to unavailable. As a society we treat much of our mid-century art and architecture with contempt and deem it as unimportant, preserving what is moldy and heralding what is new while leaving the rest to be bulldozed into oblivion. We lose our history. I see this in the world around us. A cultural study of a place includes its art its customs its music its literature its everything. We will lose how culture evolves by losing the books from certain eras.

I don't believe we should accept losing access anymore, but I see the accessibility of some things being reduced drastically.

As I have said I would like all books to be available in ebook form. I think our society treats most art as at best boring if it doesn't spruce up our living room walls. Just an opinion, mind you.

We may lose one or more authors perspectives on how culture evolved, but I am pretty sure that there is still enough available mid 19th century literature available to give an idea of the times. And most of the unavailable books will become available in time.

I have read quite a few books where I have (accidentally perhaps) learned something interesting, but few if any where I feel I have learned something unique that I could not have learned elsewhere if I made an effort.

And even though I feel an author/publisher etc. has a right to publish or not, I would be spitting bullets if I knew there were 12 or so Rex Stout (or by at least 50 other authors) novels out there unpublished in any form that I could not read. Not that I recall learning anything from Rex Stout novels, although I find his life a tad inspiring, but I sure do like them and if there were a few that I couldn't read no matter what I would be very unhappy.

Helen

Originally Posted by Cyberman tM

Perhaps a good example/analogy to "lost books" might be a book (story, whatever) that Shakespear wrote and then lost.
Maybe it was no great loss back then (say it was an early work) but nowadays we'd love to have it, just to know more about the person writing the rest of what is now considered great works.

An even better analogy would be to look at how many manuscripts and scrolls were lost when the Romans burned the great library at Alexandria in Egypt. And how many early Christian writings from the mid 1st C.E. through the late medieval period were destroyed by those who opposed to the beliefs presented in those writings. That is a lot of history that was lost.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by afv011

A rare win for common sense.

Yes, a Herculean leap in the right direction!

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

And most of the unavailable books will become available in time.

Not necessarily. A lot of 20th century science fiction, romance and mystery genres were only available in paperback format for decades, and were not printed on archival paper. Once those copies disintegrate, those books will be gone.

I've got a lot of books for which there is no hard cover equivalent, and the authors are either dead or not published any longer. There is no need for their works to be lost to time.

And it's not an issue of whether you or I gain something unique from a book, it's the uniqueness of each book in and of itself. There's no longer any reason to have to cull knowledge, fiction or non-fiction; the technology is there to preserve it now so that future users can pick and choose as they will, not as we dictate by what we keep and what we discard.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Not necessarily. A lot of 20th century science fiction, romance and mystery genres were only available in paperback format for decades, and were not printed on archival paper. Once those copies disintegrate, those books will be gone.

I've got a lot of books for which there is no hard cover equivalent, and the authors are either dead or not published any longer. There is no need for their works to be lost to time.

And it's not an issue of whether you or I gain something unique from a book, it's the uniqueness of each book in and of itself. There's no longer any reason to have to cull knowledge, fiction or non-fiction; the technology is there to preserve it now so that future users can pick and choose as they will, not as we dictate by what we keep and what we discard.

My argument has never been against preserving the books, Google or otherwise. I lean towards the opinion that the copyright holder should make that decision, but as the issue has been decided for the time being by the courts then the books themselves are most likely being preserved. If not we can blame Google

My argument(s) were that the knowledge contained in these books is/was rarely unique although it may in some instances have been presented in a unique way that was never imitated and I admit that there could have been a few published books containing world changing knowledge that no one has read and picked up on or saved or preserved in any way that are still in copyright although it seems unlikely. A friend of mine has kept every Harlequin she ever read and she is 90+ and they are in pretty good shape. Pulp fiction is collected by many and a lot if not all of the Penny Dreadfuls from the mid 18th century are still in existence, cheap paper, crappy ink and all. Then there are the comic books and playboy magazines that are still supposedly in mint condition from the mid 19th century and prior.

My other argument was that publishers/authors/rights holders should not be forced to publish a book as some seem to think or even make it available. Perhaps if they are not interested in publishing it, it should fall into the public domain sooner, perhaps not. Not my decision to make. They have a right to pursue their business interests as they see fit, just like McDonalds or Safeway etc. Kind of an inviolate right IMO. Just as you have the right to not scan/OCR and distribute the books that you own a copy of that are no longer in copyright.

And IMO publishers are doing a reasonable job of making backlist and older books available in both paper and electronic format and the quality is improving.

Again, in my opinion, books go out of print because not enough people are interested in buying them. Rex Stout (whom I mentioned in a previous post) has never gone out of print. Nor has Agatha Christie or Dorothy Sayers or Dorothy Allingham to name a few mid century or earlier authors. Looking at the odd romance author (Barbara Cartland, Mary Burchell) I remember from the 50's/60's it seems that they are either being reissued as ebooks or are for sale as used books and I am pretty sure Georgette Heyer has never been unavailable.

Subjectively I feel that my world would be poorer if I had never read some of these books, but objectively I doubt it. There are so many books I enjoy and more being published or republished all the time.

We can all give examples of books we have read that are not currently in print, and examples of books that cost more than we want to pay in terms of money or convenience that we would like to read, but I have yet to see a few hundred or even one concrete example of a book printed in the last century that is certifiably not in existence and I have asked. I am sure there are some, but I feel that the number is not high enough to impact society as we know it.

Helen

[auspex]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Author's Guild
Round One to Google: Judge Chin Finds Mass Book Digitization a Fair Use. Guild Plans Appeal.

I really thought "The long-running copyright fight between Google and the Authors Guild is over" was terribly premature. If it's taken 8 years to get this far, I can't see it being over for at least a decade more.

[auspex]

I have yet to see a few hundred or even one concrete example of a book printed in the last century that is certifiably not in existence and I have asked

Of course you haven't seen that, because it's impossible to prove such a thing. However, "not in existence" is not nearly a good enough condition. The existence, or not, of the Mona Lisa would be irrelevant if it was kept in some private collector's vault.