Where do I put the font EULA? - Page 5

Psymon · 11-02-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Besides, if you ignore our advice a second time, we'll just not bother trying to help.

Hmm... that's not very nice. I was only asking for clarification on that PDF thing, that's all. You answered my question -- and thank you for that -- but there's no need to get presumptuous and snarky about it. :/

Have a nice day.

Tex2002ans · 11-02-2013, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

I was going to use that project to try to get it out there beyond just iBooks, and learn whatever quirks and idiosyncrasies of Kindle, etc. -- and once I've got that under my belt, and a little more experience, then maybe I'll go back and try to come up with a "second edition" of my first book.

Sounds like a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

Yeah, I appreciate that -- I appreciate the sentiment of "getting it right" and being done with it, and also appreciate all the help everyone has given me! Thanks to you, and to everyone else!

You are welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

That was an interesting thread, actually! I'm not quite sure what you meant here, though, by "ligatures -> images -> shrink/expand along with the digital text"?

So a 'character' in a font is really just a mathematical collection of lines/shapes. The computer can then generate those lines+shapes at any size it needs (this is what allows you to change font sizes in any of your programs/devices).

Let us take a very simple character, like a 'T'. The font tells the computer, "when someone wants to draw a 'T', draw a line straight across X units, then draw a line from the middle Y units down."

This is then where font-size comes into account. The computer can multiply those X and Y coordinates by any number.

This means I can make the 'T' a "12-pt font", "16-pt font", "72-point font", "1000-pt font", and the 'T' will not lose any clarity and look just as crisp. When making it a 72-point font, the computer just reads the instructions for a 'T' shape, and says "draw a line straight across 72 times further, draw a straight line down in the middle 72 times further":

T T T T T T T

Now, with images, there is two types: "raster" and "vector". Raster is formats like JPG, PNG, BMP. Vector is formats like SVG, AI.

Raster is your typical image of a photograph you see. It tells the computer "stick this shade of red at this exact position on the screen, stick this shade of blue at this exact position on the screen, stick yellow at this exact position on the screen, stick this shade of black at this exact position on the screen...."

Side Note: Raster does not scale well at all. If you make the image larger, the computer has to "guess" which colors go where, and the larger you go, the more pixelated the image becomes. See Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raster_image

Vector formats are a lot like the fonts, they are all math based and tell the computer what shapes to draw. So you can scale to any size with zero loss. For example, in that same topic, with the help of RbnJrg, I was able to add an SVG apple right into the text: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=28

Side Note: A "font" is just a special way of packaging a lot of vector images together and storing them in a certain way. Everything is all math based, so you can scale this to any size and not lose any quality. See Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_image

So what I meant by "ligatures -> images -> shrink/expand", is pulling out the "shapes" from the font into a format like SVG. And then scaling them like I did the apple. So you can take this "ff" ligature and stick it in between the text:

http://openclipart.org/people/gezegen/ligatures_ff.svg

Of course, this brings along its own maintainability problems. BUT, I would say SVGs of ligatures throughout the text are slightly less worse of a problem than non-standard mappings of characters in a font.

Best bet though is to just get a font that is built correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Besides, if you ignore our advice a second time, we'll just not bother trying to help.

Meh.. I will continue to help anyone. It is not necessarily helping the original poster, but it may potentially still help someone who is lurking or who stumbles upon this topic in the future.

Perhaps there is a lurker out there who read all of our discussion on non-standard character mappings and how they are a bad idea in fonts... and now they will not use it in their books!

Psymon · 11-02-2013, 02:36 PM

<big snip>...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Of course, this brings along its own maintainability problems. BUT, I would say SVGs of ligatures throughout the text are slightly less worse of a problem than non-standard mappings of characters in a font.

Best bet though is to just get a font that is built correctly.

Geez, I feel terribly now for all the time and effort you put into that reply! I'm not only a graphic designer (for decades) and so I do understand the difference between raster/vector images, but I've also dabbled a bit in type design as well, so understand that.

I really do appreciate your reply, though! I guess I just must have misunderstood what it was you were suggesting before (and using your "apple" as an example). And yeah, I agree, my best bet is to find a font that will at least work reasonably okay for that "olde" part of my book -- but it is a bummer that that JSL font seems to be the only one out there that'll do what I actually want it to do (i.e. look the way I want it to look). :/

But hey, people for whom my "first edition" (with all it's admitted bugs) works will just be lucky -- kinda like scoring a rare incunabulum of sorts

-- and whatever I end up doing for my second edition, well, that'll be what everyone else is stuck with, the "cheap knock-off" (ha ha).

Quote:

Meh.. I will continue to help anyone. It is not necessarily helping the original poster, but it may potentially still help someone who is lurking or who stumbles upon this topic in the future.

Thank you for that (on behalf of "everyone", not just myself)! And that was a very good explanation re raster vs. vector, too, so even though it wasn't really anything new for me, I'm quite sure that it'll be helpful for someone else in the future. Cheers!

Jellby · 11-03-2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

And yeah, I agree, my best bet is to find a font that will at least work reasonably okay for that "olde" part of my book -- but it is a bummer that that JSL font seems to be the only one out there that'll do what I actually want it to do (i.e. look the way I want it to look). :/

Maybe one from The Fell Types. They appear to have long-s and fancy ligatures (properly encoded), along with other nice features.

Is the attached image enough? The code includes simply:

Code:

<p class="big olde PI">Thou apperest in my thouwts so offen of lait and I can
nowth healpe bwt thynke hauw vniqwe thou hauef becom, hauw <i>eccepcionall</i> 
ytt hast aull bine in gyttynge to kno thee. Thou art sempylly that rayre kynde
of parrsen oan sild metes in a lyfetyme, that swmme newyr mete; they respeck, 
they fornness and warmthe that I feel seem to hauef becom ane affeccion of
mystickal proporcions, whythe a deppyt that reches to they vary coore and brethe
of my Sawle. For they forst tyme in my lyfe I no longar nide to tallk of whot
hys poscibell, of whot <i>coold</i> by, for whythe thee euere thouwt that entres
my mynd as I penne those wordes hys a soung of pres, a celibracion and a
thannkesgeuyn for whot sempylly <i>hys,</i> for whot whe aulredy do shar so
ioyefolly betwhene ws.</p>

[By the way, you have alt="I" in that initial capital, it should be alt="T".]

(full code here:)

Spoiler:

The image is from a PDF created with Prince, which supports activating OpenType features through custom CSS (font-variant: prince-opentype(hist, liga, dlig);). Hopefully, iBooks and other ePub readers has (or will in a not-too-far future) similar support. See here for more information about CSS and OpenType.

If that works for you, the even better news is that the fonts have an open licese, so you can modify and adapt them as you want (you could disable some ligatures, modify some kerning, etc.).

Psymon · 11-03-2013, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

Maybe one from The Fell Types. They appear to have long-s and fancy ligatures (properly encoded), along with other nice features.

Holy crap, Jellby, you've TOTALLY thrown me for a loop! I was aware of the Fell fonts -- at least, "another" Fell font set, from Hoefler...

http://www.typography.com/fonts/hist...lsorts/inside/

...but as much as I loved them (too), they're not free nor embeddable. I never heard of this "other" Fell font!

This could, indeed, change everything -- I can't thank you enough for finding that, and for all the time and effort you put into throwing all that together for me (re your example code and everything)!

Amazing, really amazing... I'm definitely going to try this out, and I'll get back to you if I run into any problems/issues.

Thank you SO very much, Jellby!!!

Psymon · 11-03-2013, 10:26 AM

PS... Okay, I have a question about these fonts...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

Maybe one from The Fell Types.

They come in two versions, "OpenType with postscript oulines and advanced typographic features version", and "TrueType version".

I've downloaded them both but haven't looked at them or tried them out yet (probably this afternoon, though), but will the opentype version work cross-platform? If only from the link description, I can only assume that there's "more to it" than the TT version.

JSWolf · 11-03-2013, 10:32 AM

Opentype or Truetype will work. Use the version with more to it and then have Calibre subset the fonts. Then you'll have a lot smaller font file that works just with your eBook.

Psymon · 11-03-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Opentype or Truetype will work. Use the version with more to it and then have Calibre subset the fonts. Then you'll have a lot smaller font file that works just with your eBook.

Thank you!

Jellby · 11-03-2013, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

I never heard of this "other" Fell font!

Neither did I. I found them googling for "17th century fonts".

Quote:

This could, indeed, change everything

I'm glad for that. I'll have to update my edition of "Les miserables" too, as I was using a font which I have now discovered is only a shameless clone of JSL Ancient (with changed name, but still the same copyright notice).

Quote:

but will the opentype version work cross-platform? If only from the link description, I can only assume that there's "more to it" than the TT version.

As far as I know, every reader that supports TT supports OT too, but maybe not all the features. OT is more advanced format, so you should always choose it when possible.

Psymon · 11-03-2013, 11:51 AM

Okay, I just tried a test epub, basically just taking your example code an copying/pasting exactly as you had it (just changing the location of the font files, that's all)... but it doesn't seem to quite work as I'd hoped it would.

Not all of the ligatures get changed "automatically" -- only some seem to -- but perhaps more importantly is the long-ess (which I need to make use of more than the regular "s"). Apart from a whole slew of ligs that make use of the long-ess, the single character for that would appear to have been plopped as an extra character in the "Latin Extended A" part of the font.

So for all those long-esses, and for any ligs I want to use, it would seem that I still have to manually put all those in individually -- so doesn't that leave me back to square one, in the same boat as I am with the JSL fonts?

I'm confused over what to do -- any suggestions?

PS. All the various ligatures are either in a "Private Use Area" or "Alphabetic Presentation Forms" part of the font -- is that normal, and "correct" (as per earlier discussions here)?

Jellby · 11-03-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

Not all of the ligatures get changed "automatically" -- only some seem to

Let me guess... ff, fi, ffi, fl, ffl are changed automatically.

Those are the "standard ligatures", the ones more often defined, and activated with the "liga" feature, which is on by default (if the reader supports it). The others (ct in this case) are in a different set called "discretionary ligatures", and are disabled by default, you need to activate the "dlig" feature.

Quote:

but perhaps more importantly is the long-ess (which I need to make use of more than the regular "s").

Depending on how picky you are, you could choose one of two routes:

1. Actually write the long-s character (U+017F: ſ) in your input where you need it. That should work and give you most of its accompanying ligatures, which are in the "liga" table (except ſ+s = ß, which is in "dlig"). The problem with this is that it breaks searching, but you get more control

2. Activate the "hist" feature, intended for getting historical variants of some letters (only the long-s in our case). This should replace every "s" character in the input with a "ſ" (but only when it is followed by some lowercase letter). This is done on the fly and it's transparent to searching and copy-paste (or should be), but then you are at the mercy of the replacement rules programmed in the font, and of course you need to be able to activate the "hist" feature. Since the fonts are open-licensed, you could program more elaborate replacement rules for the long-s if you are not satisfied with the provided one.

Quote:

So for all those long-esses, and for any ligs I want to use, it would seem that I still have to manually put all those in individually

Only if your reader does not support enabling the OpenType features above, and only if you prefer having unsearchable and hard to maintain text, rather than text that will not be "perfect" in less capable readers, but still readable and enjoyable (and the spelling still looks "olde" without all these ligatures and long-s), and will remain "perfect" in the better readers.

Quote:

so doesn't that leave me back to square one, in the same boat as I am with the JSL fonts?

If you cannot get your reader to automatically use the ligatures... yes, almost. Except that you'd be using characters with no other predefined meaning, and without the font you'll see something like "o?en" (with the ? in a black lozenge, or an empty rectangle) instead of "o¤en", and you'd be complying with the ePub spec

Quote:

All the various ligatures are either in a "Private Use Area" or "Alphabetic Presentation Forms" part of the font -- is that normal, and "correct" (as per earlier discussions here)?

Yes, exactly. The latter are the defined ligatures in the Unicode standard, and the "liga" table, the former is an area used for whatever you want... and these "discretionary ligatures" are a common denizen there.

Psymon · 11-03-2013, 12:40 PM

Thanks for that last, detailed reply, Jellby! My brain hurts -- so much to think about and absorb.

I did just throw together another test epub, copying/pasting all of the ligatures just to see if they would even show up -- they do just fine in iBooks, but when I try it out in ADE, none of the ligs that are in that "Private Use Area" of the font show up at all. So if I really want to make use of all the ligatures, it just ain't gonna work outside of iBooks -- at least, it won't in ADE.

Hmm... I'm gonna play with this a bit more, do a little more testing in both iBooks and ADE -- I'll come back with some screenshots in a bit that, hopefully, might be helpful for you (and maybe others), too.

Jellby · 11-03-2013, 01:08 PM

Did you try adding something like this to the css (from the link I gave above)?

Code:

.olde {
    -moz-font-feature-settings: "hist=1, liga=1, dlig=1";
    -ms-font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig";
    -webkit-font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig";
    -o-font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig";
    font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig";
}

The order of "hist", "liga", "dlig" may be important (it was for Prince), so try different permutations. All these properties may be overkill anyway, "font-feature-settings" would be the one to choose for the future, and iBooks could use "-webkit-font-feature-settings", the others are unlikely to be used by any reader.

I wouldn't be surprised if ADE (and derivates) did not offer any way to access these OpenType features. But, as I said, the text would still be readable, searchable and have an old look... and would be automatically upgraded whenever Adobe decides to write a decent reader.

In any case, if I'm right with my assumption above that writing an explicit long-s in your input would unleash all its ligatures with no further action on your part, that's not an entirely bad option.

Psymon · 11-03-2013, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

Did you try adding something like this to the css (from the link I gave above)?

<snip code, etc.>

Um, I apologize for my utter ignorance, but I have no idea what any of that stuff is! I mean, I could take your word for it and just plop it in, but I confess it's all gobbledygook to me.

As for the long-ess, it's not supposed to be used "everywhere", but as with "u" and "v" it has to do with where it appears in the word: long-ess is used at the beginning and middle of words, whereas the regular "s" is used when it's the last character in a word.

In any case, I think if I just went through the entire "olde" text and simply substituted the characters/ligatures I want, that should work out okay -- and as far as searchability goes, well, as we discussed in this thread earlier the spellings in that "olde" half of my book are so screwy that I'd be extremely surprised if anyone was specifically searching for particular words. And only half the book is "olde", of course, the first half is the exact same text, but in modern english, and there would be no problem for anyone to find search results via that.

Apart from that, I threw together a couple of screenshots of all the ligatures in that font. Each ligature is on a separate line, of course -- if you think of it like a "table" (which it isn't, but whatever), then the first column is what the ligature is supposed to represent, then the second and third columns, respectively, are for the roman and italic ligs. I've included here screenshots showing what works in iBooks (all the ligs!) and what works in ADE (only some).

It's a shame that not all of the ligs work in ADE, but there's enough of them that I could probably still "fancy up" my text reasonably well and create an okay version that'll work in that platform -- which, of course, is great news!

ADDENDUM: Oops! After posting this I just realized that I missed a bunch of other ligs/alts that were in the italic font (like "st" and a couple variants of "k", etc.) -- I'll re-do these screenshots and re-post them... back in a bit...

Jellby · 11-03-2013, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psymon

As for the long-ess, it's not supposed to be used "everywhere", but as with "u" and "v" it has to do with where it appears in the word: long-ess is used at the beginning and middle of words, whereas the regular "s" is used when it's the last character in a word.

That's what the font is supposed to do. If you look at my example, it has long-s in the middle of words and normal s at the end... yet the HTML has only "s", no long-s anywhere. So, you see, the font can do that if the right features are supported and enabled. But some people don't want the long-s before or after "f", or before "k", etc. If you wanted that you'd have to modify the font's logic.

Quote:

I've included here screenshots showing what works in iBooks (all the ligs!) and what works in ADE (only some).

Those shown in ADE are the ones defined by Unicode. If you could get the OpenType features to work in iBooks, I guess in ADE you'd see the same ligatures you see now, but not the other additional ones, and by not seeing I mean you'd see "ct" instead of the ct ligature, but not "Ã" or whatever. Surely that would be a more acceptable downgrade.

Quote:

It's a shame that not all of the ligs work in ADE, but there's enough of them that I could probably still "fancy up" my text reasonably well and create an okay version that'll work in that platform -- which, of course, is great news!

What I expect you can get is a single version, that works as you want in iBooks (and maybe others), and just okay in ADE.

11-03-2013, 11:51 AM	#70
Psymon Chief Bohemian Misfit Posts: 571 Karma: 462964 Join Date: May 2013 Device: iPad, ADE	Okay, I just tried a test epub, basically just taking your example code an copying/pasting exactly as you had it (just changing the location of the font files, that's all)... but it doesn't seem to quite work as I'd hoped it would. Not all of the ligatures get changed "automatically" -- only some seem to -- but perhaps more importantly is the long-ess (which I need to make use of more than the regular "s"). Apart from a whole slew of ligs that make use of the long-ess, the single character for that would appear to have been plopped as an extra character in the "Latin Extended A" part of the font. So for all those long-esses, and for any ligs I want to use, it would seem that I still have to manually put all those in individually -- so doesn't that leave me back to square one, in the same boat as I am with the JSL fonts? I'm confused over what to do -- any suggestions? PS. All the various ligatures are either in a "Private Use Area" or "Alphabetic Presentation Forms" part of the font -- is that normal, and "correct" (as per earlier discussions here)? Last edited by Psymon; 11-03-2013 at 12:02 PM.

11-03-2013, 01:08 PM	#73
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,549 Karma: 19500001 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Did you try adding something like this to the css (from the link I gave above)? Code: .olde { -moz-font-feature-settings: "hist=1, liga=1, dlig=1"; -ms-font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig"; -webkit-font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig"; -o-font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig"; font-feature-settings: "hist", "liga", "dlig"; } The order of "hist", "liga", "dlig" may be important (it was for Prince), so try different permutations. All these properties may be overkill anyway, "font-feature-settings" would be the one to choose for the future, and iBooks could use "-webkit-font-feature-settings", the others are unlikely to be used by any reader. I wouldn't be surprised if ADE (and derivates) did not offer any way to access these OpenType features. But, as I said, the text would still be readable, searchable and have an old look... and would be automatically upgraded whenever Adobe decides to write a decent reader. In any case, if I'm right with my assumption above that writing an explicit long-s in your input would unleash all its ligatures with no further action on your part, that's not an entirely bad option.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
MSOffice 2013 EULA ties license to one assembly forever?	PainMike	Writers' Corner	63	03-25-2013 11:54 AM
Do all our bases really belong to Microsoft? (Microsoft EULA)	Stodder	Lounge	5	05-17-2012 02:51 AM
Apple changes iBooks Author EULA after criticism	Katsunami	News	17	02-06-2012 10:41 AM
ttc font file can't be put into font folder	droople	Sigil	2	08-21-2010 10:05 AM
PRS-500 Did anyone read the EULA for their Reader?	scotty1024	Sony Reader Dev Corner	21	12-25-2006 08:51 PM

11-03-2013, 10:32 AM	#67
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,757 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Opentype or Truetype will work. Use the version with more to it and then have Calibre subset the fonts. Then you'll have a lot smaller font file that works just with your eBook.

11-03-2013, 12:40 PM	#72
Psymon Chief Bohemian Misfit Posts: 571 Karma: 462964 Join Date: May 2013 Device: iPad, ADE	Thanks for that last, detailed reply, Jellby! My brain hurts -- so much to think about and absorb. I did just throw together another test epub, copying/pasting all of the ligatures just to see if they would even show up -- they do just fine in iBooks, but when I try it out in ADE, none of the ligs that are in that "Private Use Area" of the font show up at all. So if I really want to make use of all the ligatures, it just ain't gonna work outside of iBooks -- at least, it won't in ADE. Hmm... I'm gonna play with this a bit more, do a little more testing in both iBooks and ADE -- I'll come back with some screenshots in a bit that, hopefully, might be helpful for you (and maybe others), too.