palm OS on iliad?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Yeah I see what you mean.

So does that mean you also cannot put the symbian os on a gps-device...because I always wanted a pda with a sunlight viewable screen, but I think only gps devices have that...so if you tried to put the symbian on a gps..would you have the same problems with the display and the drivers?

Any "transflective" LCD screen is daylight viewable. Try, for example, an HP iPaq Pocket PC.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Yeah I see what you mean.

So does that mean you also cannot put the symbian os on a gps-device...because I always wanted a pda with a sunlight viewable screen, but I think only gps devices have that...so if you tried to put the symbian on a gps..would you have the same problems with the display and the drivers?

Yes, unless Symbian already had drivers available for the hardware the device used.

When porting an OS to new hardware, the first question is the CPU. You need machine code that actually runs on that device.

Each CPU has an "instruction set" - the basic operations built into the hardware that the CPU can perform. The OS needs to be compiled for that architecture and instruction set, to get machine code that will run on it.

Linux includes the Gnu compiler suite. The Gnu compiler can compile C, C++, Fortran, Objective C, Ada, and Java. The compiler is split into two logical parts: a front end parser that understands the language being compiled, and a back end code generator that produces object code (machine code) for the selected architecture. This means you can use the compiler to build programs for a different device than the compiler is running on. One development environment for Palm OS included GCC built as a "cross compiler". You wrote, compiled, and debugged your code on a PC, and the compiler created machine code for the Motorola MC680X0 architecture Palm devices used to use, which you could transfer to the Palm and run.

The hangup, as always, is drivers. The OS needs code that lets it talk to the particular hardware the device uses. If you are running Windows, you mostly don't think about it because Windows includes drivers for just about everything, (though if you are a gamer, you probably spend time making sure you have the latest and greatest driver for your nVidia or ATI graphics card, because the one supplied with Windows won't be the most recent version.)

If you are porting an OS to a new device, you may have to roll your own drivers. You need specs for the hardware you want to support, and may need to write in assembly language for the low level hardware access. This is a non-trivial process, done by experienced pros, only when they have no other choice.

My PDA has a sunlight viewable screen. All I have to do is turn the backlight completely off, and my device lets me do that.
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Dennis

[e-enker]

I hadnt read the reply before my last post, thanks dennis for all that information, also thanks to everyone else who replied.

Dennis, if I got that right then what you were saying was that access run palm os seperately from linux, and the linux is used to properly display the palm applications?
Does that only work for a particular linux, or would this really work for the iliad too?
And can one purchase that Access solution somewhere, or is it open source?


About the pdas...so when you turn off the backlight then you still have enough contrast to use the pda just as normal? What pda do you have?

Can you directly exchange data between the pda and the iliad, or would you have to save, for example, a webpage on a card in the pda first and then use that card to view the page on the iliad?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Dennis, if I got that right then what you were saying was that access run palm os seperately from linux, and the linux is used to properly display the palm applications?

Not exactly. Palm OS is run as a virtual machine. Essentially, Palm OS is a program running under Linux.

Palm OS communicates with Linux to do things like screen display.

Does that only work for a particular linux, or would this really work for the iliad too?

According to one of the Access reps, ALP is "Linux agnostic". The have a version of Linux for ARM based devices they got when they bought China Mobile Solutions that they used for development, but the rep said one of their engineers got it up on another ARM Linux port in a day.

But note that Palm OS Garnet is built for devices running ARM processors, so while it might be possible to get it running on other ARM devices, it couldn't be brought up on devices running Intel or other processors. It's not Linux specific, but it is CPU specific.

[quote]And can one purchase that Access solution somewhere, or is it open source?[/quopte]
No and no. It is not open source, and Access doesn't sell it to consumers. They license it to manufacturers who want to use it in their devices.

About the pdas...so when you turn off the backlight then you still have enough contrast to use the pda just as normal? What pda do you have?

I have a Tapwave Zodiac 2. It's a Palm OS 5.27 device with a 320x480 color screen. Tapwave was trying to create a device that was a Palm OS PDA and a handheld gaming device, so it has things like an ATI graphics chip with 2D acceleration and 8MB of graphics RAM, 128MB of RAM, and Yamaha stereo sound. Tapwave went belly up in July 2005, but the devices still work...

The backlight on the Zodiac can be turned off completely, which makes it quite readable outdoors. Whether you can do that with a Palm OS PDA depends on the device. I couldn't do it on my previous Palm Tungsten E. (It turns out there was a "hack" that would let me do it, but I didn't discover it till after the E was retired for failing hardware.)

Can you directly exchange data between the pda and the iliad, or would you have to save, for example, a webpage on a card in the pda first and then use that card to view the page on the iliad?

I don't have an iLiad, so I can't say for sure. My device supports Palm Hotsync, Bluetooth, and (with an SD Wifi card) Wifi, and has two SD card slots. My guess is that getting data between iLiad and PDA would require saving to a card on one device and putting the card in the other.
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Dennis

[e-enker]

Hmm. I take it that it wouldnt work with the access thing...if I cannot buy it to try it out. Too bad.

Seems like other ways to get a good os on the iliad wont work either because I dont know enough about software to get it going. It would have been really awesome if that would have been possible.

Maybe a pda with sunlightreadable screen is a solution for me, but only if it is really readable..somehow I doubt that the pdas have really good contrast without backlight, but maybe I am lucky and find one that is good for me. I would have preferred the iliad as a pda though. I guess I have to wait for future devices. With all that powerful hardware the iliad would be a perfect pda with a perfect screen for writing and reading.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Hmm. I take it that it wouldnt work with the access thing...if I cannot buy it to try it out. Too bad.

Aside from not being able to buy it, there would be work involved in porting it if you could get it. Google Android is Linux based, free and open source, and a much better starting point.

Seems like other ways to get a good os on the iliad wont work either because I dont know enough about software to get it going. It would have been really awesome if that would have been possible.

The iLiad has a good OS. It simply lacks some features you want.

Maybe a pda with sunlightreadable screen is a solution for me, but only if it is really readable..somehow I doubt that the pdas have really good contrast without backlight, but maybe I am lucky and find one that is good for me. I would have preferred the iliad as a pda though. I guess I have to wait for future devices. With all that powerful hardware the iliad would be a perfect pda with a perfect screen for writing and reading.

Like I said, I can read mine outdoors just fine. Stop by http://brighthand.com and ask there. It's one of the best mobile device sites, and folks there can give you chapter and verse on devices that might meet your needs.
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Dennis

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Seems like other ways to get a good os on the iliad wont work either because I dont know enough about software to get it going. It would have been really awesome if that would have been possible.

I don't know what you consider a "good os" if Linux doesn't count. The "Content Lister" software isn't great, but since iRex seems about to release their source for the iLiad software, we'll be able to fix that. There are several PIM applications that have already been ported to the iLiad, as well, though I don't know of one that can synchronize calendar entries, which is why I don't use my iLiad as a PDA.

The screen on my Palm IIIxe is sunlight readable, though, if you want PalmOS. Monochrome screens often are. And usually cheap these days, too.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I don't know what you consider a "good os" if Linux doesn't count. The "Content Lister" software isn't great, but since iRex seems about to release their source for the iLiad software, we'll be able to fix that. There are several PIM applications that have already been ported to the iLiad, as well, though I don't know of one that can synchronize calendar entries, which is why I don't use my iLiad as a PDA.

People don't buy OSes. They buy tools to do jobs. If the tools you need aren't available under a particular OS, it's not a good OS for you, regardless of how capable it may be otherwise.

The screen on my Palm IIIxe is sunlight readable, though, if you want PalmOS. Monochrome screens often are. And usually cheap these days, too.

Any of the older monochrome units qualify. I started reading ebooks on a Handspring Visor Deluxe with a 160x160 mono screen, and went from that to a Visor Pro wuith the same screen size. Both were quite readable out of doors.

The next step was a Tungsten E, which wasn't, because I couldn't turn the back light all the way off. I didn't find out abut the hack that would let me do so till after the E had been retired.
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Dennis

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

People don't buy OSes. They buy tools to do jobs. If the tools you need aren't available under a particular OS, it's not a good OS for you, regardless of how capable it may be otherwise.

Point taken. But the poster did start the thread by asking if another OS (PalmOS) could be installed, later qualified that to include "any open-source OS" and now doesn't seem satisfied with finding that Linux is already installed. Perhaps it would be helpful to step back and ask, "What applications do you want to run?" or even "What functions do you need the unit to perform?"

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Point taken. But the poster did start the thread by asking if another OS (PalmOS) could be installed, later qualified that to include "any open-source OS" and now doesn't seem satisfied with finding that Linux is already installed. Perhaps it would be helpful to step back and ask, "What applications do you want to run?" or even "What functions do you need the unit to perform?"

Exactly. There seems to be some confusion on the original poster's part between the OS and the applications.

And technically Linux refers to the OS kernel, not any of the stuff bundled with it. My Linksys router uses an embedded Linux kernel. Because it uses Linux, the firmware is open source, and I happily replaced the original firmware with a third party version that fixes bugs and adds features. My SO is bemused by the fact that I can telnet to a command line on the router and run vi to edit scripts that control it.

But the first question I ask folks talking about what computer to buy is "What do you want to do?". The specified tasks will determine the best choice to purchase.
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Dennis

[e-enker]

Alright, lol.....I didnt meen to confuse anybody.##

What I would need the iliad to do is display a few websites, but from what Ive learned about the browsers of the iliad Im almost sure that those sites are not supported.
I thought that maybe the simplest way to enhance the internet capabilities of the iliad would be to use another os. I thought that since its so simple to run another os on a laptop, it might be equally simple with the iliad. I hadnt thought of drivers though and I had presume that the source is available, including drivers.
And by "good" os I basically meant an os with better internet applications. On a second thought I also meant that a good os is an os that makes the most of the hardware, and I was under the impression that the os of the iliad is pretty limited compared to what the hardware would allow for.

I didnt mean any open source os, that was a wrong formulation. I meant any os with better internet capabilities.


So from what has been said so far I conclude that the basic message is that it is not possible to run another os on the iliad, and if then its too much work. Is that correct?


Why does the iliad have such a limited internet performance, are there just no better browsers available or is ts there another reason?

And when irex make their source available, does that that mean that better browsers can be ported or will the iliad never be a better internet device than it already is?

Also thanks for the link to brighthand, Ive checked it out already.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Alright, lol.....I didnt meen to confuse anybody.##

What I would need the iliad to do is display a few websites, but from what Ive learned about the browsers of the iliad Im almost sure that those sites are not supported.

Depends on the sites and what they require.

I thought that maybe the simplest way to enhance the internet capabilities of the iliad would be to use another os. I thought that since its so simple to run another os on a laptop, it might be equally simple with the iliad. I hadnt thought of drivers though and I had presume that the source is available, including drivers.

Palm OS would have been the wrong one for what you wanted to do, even if it was possible. Extant browsers from Palm OS lag way behind browsers on other platforms. I have about six on my PalmOS PDA. A couple are more or less usable, and that's about the best I can say for them. I can connect to the Internet via Wifi and surf with it, but I do so only if I don't have another option.

And by "good" os I basically meant an os with better internet applications. On a second thought I also meant that a good os is an os that makes the most of the hardware, and I was under the impression that the os of the iliad is pretty limited compared to what the hardware would allow for.

Not exactly. The iLiad was designed to serve certain purposes, and the OS supplied was customized to do those things. What it does, it does well. When you take a device, and want to make it do things it wasn't designed to do, you'll have problems, regardless of what OS it uses.

I didnt mean any open source os, that was a wrong formulation. I meant any os with better internet capabilities.

It would pretty much have to be an open source OS to do what you want at all, since you would have to customize it for the platform, and that would require access to the source code.

Linux is fine for Internet access, if configured for it. See the Nokia Internet Tablets, based on a Linux kernel with the QT toolkit to handle the display.

So from what has been said so far I conclude that the basic message is that it is not possible to run another os on the iliad, and if then its too much work. Is that correct?

You don't need another OS. The iLiad runs Linux, which is a fine base for almost anything. You need the applications provided extended to do what you want.

But, yes, it's almost certainly too much work. If what you want to do is access the Internet from a mobile device. you are better served to get a device like the Nokia tablets, which are designed to do that. (you can get a Nokia 800 for about $200 on eBay.)

Why does the iliad have such a limited internet performance, are there just no better browsers available or is ts there another reason?

It's an electronic document viewer. Why should it have better internet performance? That's not what it's mainly intended to do.

It's like asking "Why does my Volkswagen has such a low top speed?" Easy. It's designed to be an economy car, used in situations where you don't need to go fast. High speed and economy are mutually exclusive.

And when irex make their source available, does that that mean that better browsers can be ported or will the iliad never be a better internet device than it already is?

Good question. Better browsers could be ported. But you would still have the question of connection speeds, lack of color support, and the fact that some things would be awful no matter what. Consider trying to display video on an eInk screen with the slow refresh...

Also thanks for the link to brighthand, Ive checked it out already.

It's one of the best places for mobile device information.
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Dennis

[axel77]

e_enker, you still seem to be very confused about what an Operating System is, and what an application is.

I don't know where to point to, to help you, but this might help you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

[ericshliao]

Originally Posted by e-enker

What I would need the iliad to do is display a few websites, but from what Ive learned about the browsers of the iliad Im almost sure that those sites are not supported.

Would you list some of the websites?

Originally Posted by e-enker

I thought that maybe the simplest way to enhance the internet capabilities of the iliad would be to use another os.

To enhance the internet capabilities of the iliad, using another os might be the hardest way.

Originally Posted by e-enker

I thought that since its so simple to run another os on a laptop, it might be equally simple with the iliad. I hadnt thought of drivers though and I had presume that the source is available, including drivers.

Do you have a laptop running Palm OS? If not, what makes you think Palm OS runnable on iLiad? There are many obstacles for porting an OS to another machine. Lacking device driver is just one of them.

Originally Posted by e-enker

And by "good" os I basically meant an os with better internet applications. On a second thought I also meant that a good os is an os that makes the most of the hardware, and I was under the impression that the os of the iliad is pretty limited compared to what the hardware would allow for.

Os and application are two different things. A bad os will never become a good os because of good application. iLiad adopts Linux as its os. Linux is one of the most popular os in the world. I won't say that Linux is not a good os. You are wrong if you think that "the os of the iliad is pretty limited compared to what the hardware would allow for".

Originally Posted by e-enker

I didnt mean any open source os, that was a wrong formulation. I meant any os with better internet capabilities.

So from what has been said so far I conclude that the basic message is that it is not possible to run another os on the iliad, and if then its too much work. Is that correct?

If not for open source os, we wouldn't have Linux running on iLiad. And we might have to pay tripple price for an iLiad adopting proprietary os.
Do not always blame on lousy os for not providing good internet capability. It's not always os's responsibility.

Originally Posted by e-enker

So from what has been said so far I conclude that the basic message is that it is not possible to run another os on the iliad, and if then its too much work. Is that correct?

Yes, I think so.

Originally Posted by e-enker

Why does the iliad have such a limited internet performance, are there just no better browsers available or is ts there another reason?

And when irex make their source available, does that that mean that better browsers can be ported or will the iliad never be a better internet device than it already is?

Because iLiad is a device with very limited computational ability, so it can't provide everythin you want, including better internet capability. IMHO, The situation will not change even when iRex makes source code abailable. If you want better internet capability (I think you mean web-browsabilty), iLiad will never fit you need.

[axel77]

Also Linux (as operating system, as kernel!) has very decent "internet capabilities", the network stack sure is better than for windows. One can argue if the OpenBSD network stack is better, but I think you are eitherway confused between what the "internet capability" of an OS is, compared to what browser you got installed on a sytem.

Also the browser capabilities of the iLiad is nothing an upcoming coderelease of some closed parts of the iLiad could help us with. For this coding task the iLiad is already open enough. Also there are at least two 3rd party browsers available for the iLiad, did you try these?

And about CPU power, ericshliao is right, btw. did you know we today need 100times more CPU power to display a single html webpage than it was needed for mankind to land the first time on the moon?

ericshliao, linux is not only used because its free. Its used because its an excellent OS scaling really well also down onto embedded devices. The license costs for example for VxWorks are when I remember correctly 50€ per CPU, this is a considerable amount, buts its not 3 times the cost. However as e.g. VxWoks might be usefull in small devices with hard realtime needs, its just so far off from offering the same amount of features a GNU/Linux system can do.