How long should a copyright last?

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by shalym

In my case, the "enrichment value" is being able to read them at all. For example, I can't find E.E. Smith's Lensman books available in print anywhere. I can get used paper copies, but those don't benefit anyone but the seller. The author is dead, and his estate obviously isn't interested in re-publishing the books.

Shari

SF Gateway have the skylark and d'alembert ones so I suspect it's only a matter of time before they release the rest.

Given the vast number of books that weren't commercially viable to reprint, it will take time for them to be digitised, but, as near as I can tell things are heading toward everything being available as eBooks (there is certainly a huge number more backlist titles now available than there were a few years ago and this trens shows no signs of slowing down). So, as hard as it may seem in this instant gratification time, things look like they will sort themselves out so just wait a bit. Transition periods are, by definition, transitory.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

SF Gateway have the skylark and d'alembert ones so I suspect it's only a matter of time before they release the rest.

Given the vast number of books that weren't commercially viable to reprint, it will take time for them to be digitised, but, as near as I can tell things are heading toward everything being available as eBooks (there is certainly a huge number more backlist titles now available than there were a few years ago and this trens shows no signs of slowing down). So, as hard as it may seem in this instant gratification time, things look like they will sort themselves out so just wait a bit. Transition periods are, by definition, transitory.

That's the point...Skylark is in the Public Domain. Lensman isn't. As for the d'alambert ones, those weren't even written by E.E. Smith--they are fan fiction written by Stephen Goldin, based on a family in a short story that was written by Smith.

Shari

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by shalym

That's the point...Skylark is in the Public Domain. Lensman isn't. As for the d'alambert ones, those weren't even written by E.E. Smith--they are fan fiction written by Stephen Goldin, based on a family in a short story that was written by Smith.

Shari

OK, I was under the impression that only the first 2 Skylark books were public domain, fair point about the d'alembert stuff though.

[Greg Anos]

Also note: much of SF Gateway is Geo restricted and legally unavailable in the US.

The Skylark of Space is exists in three variants - which can have major differences. 1926, 1947, and 1958. Most people today think of the 1958 version when they think of Skylark Of Space. It's around 180 pages in length. The 1926 version was 300 pages. Only the 1926 version is public domain...

The second Skylark (Skylark 3) has two variants, one P.D. and one under copyright. They only vary by a few paragraphs (the afterword in the PD version) and an occasional word change...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

That's the point...Skylark is in the Public Domain.

No it isn't. SF Gateway are a British publisher; the original magazine version of the Skylark stories are in the US public domain, but none of them are in the UK public domain, and it's the novel versions that SF Gateway have the rights to and are selling.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No it isn't. SF Gateway are a British publisher; the original magazine version of the Skylark stories are in the US public domain, but none of them are in the UK public domain, and it's the novel versions that SF Gateway have the rights to and are selling.

Correct - US public domain. The rest is correct. The magazine version was a serialization of an existing unpublished novel, completed in 1920. (Smith was paid $125 US for the serialization.) The "novel" version is the 1958 re-write by Smith, to bring the story up to the writing standards of 1958...

All non-posthumus E.E. Smith PHD works, will be PD in Life + 50 in 2016, Life + 70 in 2036.

However, Harry, inasmuch as certain versions are P.D. in the US, how does the pre-Berne treaties for copyright between the US and the UK affect the UK copyright status?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

However, Harry, inasmuch as certain versions are P.D. in the US, how does the pre-Berne treaties for copyright between the US and the UK affect the UK copyright status?

The "rule of the shorter term" has applied and not applied at different times in UK copyright law. I believe I'm correct in saying that it didn't apply between 1955 and 1995, which means that anything which entered the US public domain between these dates didn't also enter the UK public domain, whereas anything which entered the UK public domain before 1955 or after 1995 is also in the UK public domain.

So whether or not a work that's in the US public domain, that would otherwise be protected by copyright in the UK, under our "life+70" copyright law, is also in the UK public domain depends on the year that it entered the US public domain.

Do you happen to know when the "Skylark" stories became public domain in the US?

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by gmw

If you read carefully you may notice that I'm not arguing for a further copyright extension, I'm looking for ways to make the argument against extension more effective. So I wasn't "limiting" the value to money, I was suggesting that finding/defining a financial value is more likely to be an effective counter for financial ones arguing for further extensions.

A few things have changed in the last few hundred years. More people have access to the public domain for a start, and ebooks and ventures like Project Gutenberg have increased that access even more. The accessibility arguments (ability to access the material in forms suitable for various disabilities) presented by people here are also factors that could perhaps be valued in monetary terms. I'm not sure how many fan-fiction authors there were a hundred years ago, but I know there are a lot now. Also movie rights and other forms of derivation from original works all have at least a potential monetary value that could be estimated. Give a dollar value to counter a dollar value. That doesn't take away from the less tangible benefits of the public domain, but the tangible values are less easy to dismiss or reduce in importance.

I have read carefully (except the really long posts. I don't have time to read those,) but the thread is long and I'm not yet familiar with all the screen names. I apologize for not knowing your position.

You might be right about the money argument being more effective, or you might be wrong and it will backfire. I'm afraid that the "tangible" benefits argument will play into the hands of the imaginary property army. It is their metier, after all.

rjb

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The "rule of the shorter term" has applied and not applied at different times in UK copyright law. I believe I'm correct in saying that it didn't apply between 1955 and 1995, which means that anything which entered the US public domain between these dates didn't also enter the UK public domain, whereas anything which entered the UK public domain before 1955 or after 1995 is also in the UK public domain.

So whether or not a work that's in the US public domain, that would otherwise be protected by copyright in the UK, under our "life+70" copyright law, is also in the UK public domain depends on the year that it entered the US public domain.

Do you happen to know when the "Skylark" stories became public domain in the US?

Harry, Greg Weeks would know better than I do, but I think the Magazine version of the Skylark of Space should have entered the public domain in 1954. (1926 + 28 years). Skylark 3 would have been in 1958, clearly in to non-apply range, so it would not be in the UK public domain.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Do you happen to know when the "Skylark" stories became public domain in the US?

Best guess is 1928+28=1956, so first year in PD is 1957.

If the copyright date is 1926 instead of 1928 then it's 1926+28=1954 first PD year of 1955. The first publication was in Amazing stories 1928. Was a copyright registered for it before first publication?

Greg