PDF is not an ebook format!

Originally Posted by avantman42

Is it possible to remove the DRM authentication on the file so that it's no longer able to be read? I know Amazon can do that with their DRM, is it possible with Adobe DRM?

Even if there is a way to deactivate purchased files, deactivation doesn't always work. An example of what can go wrong using Adobe's DRM: it is possible to borrow a library book with your computer, copy it onto your ereader, disconnect your ereader from your computer, then return the library book with your computer. The book will not function on your computer, but it will still function on your ereader. I would imagine that you could game deactivation on purchases in a similar way if such mechanisms existed. Even if the purchase could be reliably deactivated, people could still strip the DRM from the book before returning it.

There is also the business side to consider. Let's pretend that the store issued refunds, but their contracts with Adobe and publishers didn't allow for returns. (I don't know if this is the case, but it is easy to imagine contract negotiations heading that way because of the nature of digital media.) In that case, the bookseller would have to pay Adobe and the publisher for their product while receiving no revenues from the returned product. It's not like a physical product that they may be able to resell, even if it is discounted.

[jersysman]

Originally Posted by Lutraa

Of course, Amazon is notorious for having literally taken ebooks back, having gone into customers' Kindles back in 2009 to delete books (Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm") the company had no right to sell in the first place. Amazon can see what you have stored on your Kindle when you have the wireless or 3G radio on. So, unlike the situation the OP is commenting on, Amazon is an ebook vendor which is less likely to find customers trying to steal digital content by claiming that purchased materials are incompatible with the customers' devices.

Legally, I believe the situation here in the US is the same as in Australia with regards to representations of an item's serviceability: if the vendor claims it will work on a certain device, and it doesn't, the vendor must take the item back and refund the customer's money.

I would do a credit card chargeback.

What is Diesel Books if not also an ebook vendor?

[4691mls]

PDF is a valid ebook format. I have read a couple of PDF books from the public library (Overdrive) on my Sony PRS-T1 with only minor issues - page turns were slower than with epub, and when I tried to press/select a word to look up in the dictionary, the whole line would automatically be selected instead of just the word.

However, the public library clearly stated that the format as "pdf" so I knew what I was getting. (Not to mention that since it was a library book, if it didn't work on my reader I would not have been out any money.)

I would not know what "adobe encrypted DRM" was either. Given that most ebookstores sell mainly kindle and epub books, I would have guessed that Adobe DRM would be epub. I think the OP was justified in complaining, and the store should make clear in the product description that the book is in PDF format.

[Lemurion]

The problem with PDF as an ebook format is that it was not designed to be read on screen. It was designed to replicate physical documents in electronic format. It's been used for reading for decades, but that's not what it was designed for, and that's why so many people don't like it.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Even if there is a way to deactivate purchased files, deactivation doesn't always work. An example of what can go wrong using Adobe's DRM: it is possible to borrow a library book with your computer, copy it onto your ereader, disconnect your ereader from your computer, then return the library book with your computer. The book will not function on your computer, but it will still function on your ereader. I would imagine that you could game deactivation on purchases in a similar way if such mechanisms existed. Even if the purchase could be reliably deactivated, people could still strip the DRM from the book before returning it.

Very little in life is certain. Amazon can remove ebooks from Kindles, but only if the DRM hasn't been removed. My point was that if there is a deactivation mechanism, then it gives the seller a way to have the ebook "returned" in exchange for a refund. It's not 100% effective, but neither are DRM or geo-restrictions.

[vikarti]

Amazon...amazon just refunds when you press button in Manage Your Kindle (you don't even need to contact Customer Service). Even if book was not sent via Whispernet but via 'Transfer over USB'. So it is technically possible to both get money back from amazon and keep file for this kindle. or remove DRM. it's all honor code.

Well, and rumors that they in fact have policy of either blocking returns or accounts if this feauture is abused: http://www.the-digital-reader.com/20...return-policy/ and http://www.the-digital-reader.com/20...indle-account/

[Prestidigitweeze]

The one and only time I bought a pdf by mistake, I was protected by my habit of right-clicking on "Save Target As," which stopped me from completing the download once I saw the pdf extension. That was on Kobo (and the company refunded my money the next day); does Diesel's site allow targeted saves as well?

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

The one and only time I bought a pdf by mistake, I was protected by my habit of right-clicking on "Save Target As," which stopped me from completing the download once I saw the pdf extension. That was on Kobo (and the company refunded my money the next day); does Diesel's site allow targeted saves as well?

Not that I could see - just the .acsm download.

[Prestidigitweeze]

I believe I caught the pdf at the stage after the acsm link; the book was Ligotti's The Conspiracy against the Human Race. I'd replicate the process again to be sure, but I doubt that Kobo would comply if I asked for the same refund twice.

[pro2type]

Originally Posted by crich70

You can convert the book to kindle though it might be a bit of work.

No you cant. You will end up with a mess. Not an ebook.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by pro2type

No you cant. You will end up with a mess. Not an ebook.

Well I have converted pdf files to epub, html and kindle using pdftoepub before. sometimes there are needed corrections but it usually works.

[teh603]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I'm going to start by saying that much as I hate PDF for fiction, I've bought a whole bunch of RPG Manuals in PDF format over the last decade and been very satisfied with them. Of course, I also have a large tablet.

Where I see the problem is in the idea that it's not identified as PDF. I'm sure Diesel has a page where they explain their formats and terminology, but if they're selling PDFs they should identify the format, not just the DRM scheme.

Sure, they may call DRM epub something else, but referring to a format by the name of a DRM scheme it shares with at least one other format just isn't good enough. It's bad form and it's sloppy.

+1

I've had no problems with RPG books in PDF, even on a smaller reader like my old iRiver Story HD. Still no problems with my TF300. PDF handles illustrations, diagrams, and sidebars just that much better than ePUB.

I'd also argue that textbooks are better as PDFs instead of ePUBs. That way we don't have to cave to peoples' demands that we waste time on an equation markup language. The damn thing would probably end up being first in an ePUB writer's manual, which would drive off people who weren't Math majors and will never need to use it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by meeera

When oh when oh when will companies learn that PDF is not an ebook format? It's a standard for printable documents so that the user will see a consistent layout; not an ebook format.

Do not, under any bloody circumstances, try to sell me something labelled an "ebook" and tell me that oh yes, it's compatible with your exact six inch eink ereader, completely compatible, and carefully avoid telling me until I've bought, paid for, and downloaded it, that oh it's actually an unreadable PDF, oops, well, we've got your money now.

I'M LOOKING AT YOU, DIESEL EBOOKS.

And you know, whatever, if some of you, for some bizarre reason, prefer reading your books in PDF format (on large tablets, perhaps?), then bully for you. Just TELL the consumer up front that you're only offering a PDF, before you take their money.

As I haven't bought an ebook for some time at Diesel, I can't remember for sure... but don't they give you a choice of what format to buy, and warn you with a very big screen, just before the end "MAKE SURE YOU CHOSE THE CORRECT FORMAT"?

It could be BooksOnBoard that did this though... I'm not certain.

But indeed: if it's stated nowhere that you're going to get a PDF, I'd file a complaint.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

It could be BooksOnBoard that did this though... I'm not certain.

It was BoB.

[Lutraa]

Originally Posted by jersysman

What is Diesel Books if not also an ebook vendor?

My point isn't that Diesel is not an ebook vendor, it's that unlike Amazon, which can see if you still have one of its DRMed books in correct format on your Kindle, Diesel presumably has no way of confirming that you are reading one of its PDF files after having told the company that you don't want a book in this format and getting your money back.