PC sales Suffer Biggest Slump in years

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I am able to use the basics, in case I need to work on a Unix/Linux system and need an editor at the Terminal, but I could never adapt to it to make it my main editor.

It's best to avoid vi dependence. It has driven people to develop everything from vi inspired web browsers to vi inspired window managers, simply because it's impossible to use anything else once the keybindings are hardwired into your brain.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

It's best to avoid vi dependence. It has driven people to develop everything from vi inspired web browsers to vi inspired window managers, simply because it's impossible to use anything else once the keybindings are hardwired into your brain.

It could be worse. It could be (boo! hiss!) Emacs .

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

It's best to avoid vi dependence. It has driven people to develop everything from vi inspired web browsers to vi inspired window managers, simply because it's impossible to use anything else once the keybindings are hardwired into your brain.

LOL. It's funny because it's true.

I've had a few programs that did this. Mostly recently, after a few months getting used to a keyboard with built-in screenshot capabilities, I saw a beautiful sunset while driving and tried to hit the screenshot key.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Oh, it's a "vi" clone, is it? I know "vi" like the back of my hand; used it for years on Unix systems during my "former life" as a radio astronomer.

Yes, it's a Vi clone... adding about a gazillion additional commands.

After you have learned all of them, you'll find that there's always...

JUST
ONE
MORE.

And if there's not... then there WILL be, with the next release.

Originally Posted by BWinmill

It's best to avoid vi dependence. It has driven people to develop everything from vi inspired web browsers to vi inspired window managers, simply because it's impossible to use anything else once the keybindings are hardwired into your brain.

True enough... there are Vim plugins for Visual Studio, Eclipse, NetBeans... for about anything you can think of. While "Vi / Vim" are very powerful, their way of handling text is completely different to any other editor.

You either don't use Vim... or you use it for about everything.

It's impossible to "casually" use it.

(The same is probably true for Emacs.)

As said, I can use Vi / Vim (and Emacs) to get some basic stuff done if I need to, but I'm not using them as my main text editors.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kacir

Try that right+left simultaneous click

I have tried, it does not work.

I can use Emacs to get some basic stuff done if I need to, but I'm not using it as my main operating system.

Actually, I am a vi user and it does create problems when writing in other programs since the periodic vi command will sneak into my writing. The absent minded deletion of three letters makes it look like my mind is on porn, since it is the command xxx. Moving the cursor up three lines makes me look like a white supremacist, since it is the command kkk. And yes, that has happened while I've been writing stuff in web browsers, email clients, and word processors. Thankfully, I've caught all of those errors in time. I hope.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It could be worse. It could be (boo! hiss!) Emacs .

Have you seen this? (I actually have nothing against emacs users, and made a concerted effort to learn it many years ago, but my fingers simply could not handle the contortions required. I do all my editing in vi and get by with a tiny subset of the commands. But I was very glad to learn % a few years back.)

[Katsunami]

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

"Take a look" at VIM? You can't. It'll blow your mind. You don't really edit text; you're constantly issuing commands to have text edited by VIM. (And no, there are no VIM modes; not IMHO.

Of course there are. Beep mode, and, um, I forget what the other one is.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

"Take a look" at VIM? You can't. It'll blow your mind. You don't really edit text; you're constantly issuing commands to have text edited by VIM.

That is why I emphasized that I do not normally suggest to people to have a look at it.
I think that HarryT is smart and experienced enough not to run away screaming.
Harry has been learning Greek (!!!), so he could read Greek classics in original. Vim can't be *much* more difficult, can it?

Originally Posted by Katsunami

(And no, there are no VIM modes; not IMHO. Using "i" is just the command used to start inserting text.)

There *are* modes in Vim. Five of 'em. The difference from vi is that the Vim indicated what mode you are in (when properly configured).

Originally Posted by HarryT

Oh, it's a "vi" clone, is it? I know "vi" like the back of my hand; used it for years on Unix systems during my "former life" as a radio astronomer.

I that case, here is a short instruction
Install it. Find file vimrcexample.vim and rename it to vimrc.vim - because without configuration file Vim behaves just like canonical version of vi, so you are missing like 90% of cool stuff.
start [G]vim
press Esc several times
type :help
on the command line. It has *very* nice manual built in in form of User manual written by a real technical writer and a reference manual that is better than any documentation I have ever seen for any piece of software.
To see the list of all commands type
<Esc><Esc>:help index

When you edit your vimrc file, put something like
:source mswin.vim
at the end. mswin.vim is a configuration file you can find somewhere in directories Vim installs and has configuration for all the stuff you are used to, like Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Insert, ... so you do not need to do everything "the Vim way" - like using hjkl letters for navigating the cursor. You do not have to rewire your brain, just because somebody things that hjkl is more natural to touch typist than the use of arrow keys.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Yes, it's a Vi clone... adding about a gazillion additional commands.

After you have learned all of them, you'll find that there's always...

JUST
ONE
MORE.

And if there's not... then there WILL be, with the next release.

You just use a very small subset of all commands and features. The nice thing is, everybody uses *different* subset. You just need to be aware of all the possibilities and you can look up that exotic Regular expressions metacharacter or whatever when the need comes.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

You either don't use Vim... or you use it for about everything.

I use Vim where I can use its very rich capabilities. I still use lots of other programs and I haven't installed any plugin to any of my programs to make it work like Vim. I do use key '/' to start searching for text in Firefox. I think that you might have to activate the functionality somewhere ... it's been a really long time since I have configured my firefox from scratch.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

It's impossible to "casually" use it.

I know people that do casually use it. They are, for example, people that have to edit a config file or two on a Filer server (the one from NetApp). They know 7 commands and they know they have to press 'i' to start writing and press <Esc>:wq to save and quit. This is all you really need to know for casual use.

[kacir]

One more thing, to get back to the thread topic.
When I purchased a new notebook with Windows 8 preinstalled I had to read up on how to work with it. How to, for example, switch it off, or do other ordinary things.
My conclusion was that Windows 8 was like Emacs. It can do anything, you just have to know lots of shortcuts. They just begin with pressing the Win key, instead of C-x M-c M-butterfly.
And instead of sitting down and using it straight away you have to sit down for couple of days and learn stuff.
At the end I have upgraded Windows 8 to Mint Linux and I am happy.

[taming]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Certainly I agree with you. I was thinking more of the much more common situation of moving text around inside the document you're working on. Mastering Ctrl-C, Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V, is often a lot quicker than using the mouse.

In the newer Office applications, there are a number of choices for the kind of past one wants--matching the receiving document's style, keeping the original, or plain text. There is a paste icon that can be on the quick bar that gives you those three choices. Not sure if Ctrl-V does that or not.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Oh, it's a "vi" clone, is it? I know "vi" like the back of my hand; used it for years on Unix systems during my "former life" as a radio astronomer.

It's a vi clone in the sense that it's a superset of vi (almost - a very few legacy features are dropped), but it's far more than just that.

If you want a full-featured, multi-windowed programmer's text editor with the gloriously efficient vi way of working (modal, with the very logical orthogonal operator+motion approach) then you need to look at Vim.

For someone who likes to keep their hands on the keyboard, there's nothing to beat it in terms of editing power per keystroke (IMHO, of course ).

As you're already a vi user, the mind-set shift that novices need to undergo to get the hang of the vi approach won't be needed - the rest of the learning curve is just picking up the added bits as you need them.

There is a bit of a learning curve for novices, but once you understand the vi way of working (which is highly logical, so can be picked up quickly) the rest comes pretty easily.

(Oh goody - editor wars on mobileread )

/JB

[tompe]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

Have you seen this? (I actually have nothing against emacs users, and made a concerted effort to learn it many years ago, but my fingers simply could not handle the contortions required.

Maybe you forgot to move the Ctrl key to its proper place (the CAPS Lock position on modern keyboards).

[frahse]

I can only say that you "real" programmers are "wild and crazy guys."