PC sales Suffer Biggest Slump in years

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

Folks like Stardock deserve the money they'll make. I'd be willing to pay them, but I refuse to pay Microsoft for an OS that requires me to buy an add-on to restore the functionality that I want.

I don't play games on PC any more due to the restrictive DRM. So I'm seeing no need to stick with Windows for my next desktop.

DRM-free gaming to the rescue!

GOG.com https://secure.gog.com/ - No DRM, compatibility testing for multiple Windows versions, good support
Desura http://www.desura.com/ - Sometimes DRM, mostly not
Indie Game bundles (HumbleBundle, Indie Royale) - No DRM, but some Steam
Humble Store (YMMV, check the icons) - Sometimes DRM I think?
Amazon lists DRM on the title pages sometimes

Oh, and most of those are cross-platform. GOG.com in particular uses ScummVM or Dosbox for many games, which can be set up to run on Android.


Microsoft managed to make Windows 8 super unattractive for hobbyists and gamers just before releasing XBox One. They could have positioned Win 8 so that people who were driven away from XBox by DRM got a Windows PC for TV / Controller play on Steam or whatever. All it would have taken was making Metro optional on desktops. Instead, they made both their major systems unattractive to hobbyists at the same time, when there's already a groundswell of interest for alternate operating systems due to Android.

Console gamers are now upset over higher prices and inability to resell, and PC gamers were already upset over hijinks in their platform. Both are looking for somewhere new. That's how we get the Ouya (Android console), Steam expanding into Linux gaming, etc. Bad move MS.

[Dulin's Books]

You absolutely can resell your xbox one games

http://news.softpedia.com/news/GameS...y-359465.shtml

"Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers. Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this. In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends."

"Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers."

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

You absolutely can resell your xbox one games

No.
You may or may not be able to resell your XBox One games.
From your own quote:

"Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers. Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this. In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends."

"Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers."

So they can opt out, and prevent me from trading in my games.
That is the complete opposite of absolutely being able to resell them. The right is not absolute, it exists at the whim of the publisher.

Currently employed at Microsoft as a Product Advisor

No offense, but anyone trying to spin this is pro-customer would have to be employed by Microsoft.

[Fluribus]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

DRM-free gaming to the rescue!

GOG.com https://secure.gog.com/ - No DRM, compatibility testing for multiple Windows versions, good support
Desura http://www.desura.com/ - Sometimes DRM, mostly not
Indie Game bundles (HumbleBundle, Indie Royale) - No DRM, but some Steam
Humble Store (YMMV, check the icons) - Sometimes DRM I think?
Amazon lists DRM on the title pages sometimes

Oh, and most of those are cross-platform. GOG.com in particular uses ScummVM or Dosbox for many games, which can be set up to run on Android.


Microsoft managed to make Windows 8 super unattractive for hobbyists and gamers just before releasing XBox One. They could have positioned Win 8 so that people who were driven away from XBox by DRM got a Windows PC for TV / Controller play on Steam or whatever. All it would have taken was making Metro optional on desktops. Instead, they made both their major systems unattractive to hobbyists at the same time, when there's already a groundswell of interest for alternate operating systems due to Android.

Console gamers are now upset over higher prices and inability to resell, and PC gamers were already upset over hijinks in their platform. Both are looking for somewhere new. That's how we get the Ouya (Android console), Steam expanding into Linux gaming, etc. Bad move MS.

Thanks. GOG would be awesome. Unfortunately, my internet connection is very slow. Downloading a CD-size game would take over an hour. I'm stuck with disc-based games. Anything with Steam, or any other kind of check-in, is out.

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

Thanks. GOG would be awesome. Unfortunately, my internet connection is very slow. Downloading a CD-size game would take over an hour. I'm stuck with disc-based games. Anything with Steam, or any other kind of check-in, is out.

You can buy Steam games in physical shops and install it from a CD.
Whilst you need to initially log into steam to set up a game, most games you can play in Steam in "Offline mode", meaning not logged in and not require an active internet connection.

Of course individual game makers requirements rules will vary, as is the case with many of the big game names, some will require login to the game makers servers, but most indie games don't have that requirement.
Games specifically designed for online play will of course have this requirement.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

Thanks. GOG would be awesome. Unfortunately, my internet connection is very slow. Downloading a CD-size game would take over an hour. I'm stuck with disc-based games. Anything with Steam, or any other kind of check-in, is out.

Don't you know anyone with a fast internet connection? Or download at work, maybe (before or after shift)?

Even then, if you download a CD in one hour, then you can download about 5,5 GB in one night. (Assuming you have a flat-fee connection.) The GoG.com downloader supports pause/resume also. Many games at GoG.com are much smaller than this.

You download only once: if you keep a backup, you will never need to connect to GoG.com again (except if they update the game: then you need to redownload, but this normally does not happen often).

If you decide to buy 25 games at once and want to download them immediately, then you'd have a long wait ahead....

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Kirtai

If you middle click on a taskbar icon it immediately opens a new instance of the program. No need for menu navigation.

I didn't know that, but you're right: it works. Thanks! Of course, I always kept it pinned to the start menu in earlier versions of windows.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

No offense, but anyone trying to spin this is pro-customer would have to be employed by Microsoft.

not trying to spin anything. I am open and upfront about my current employment so there is no misunderstandings. my posting history here will show that i have always been fair and truthful no matter the subject even when i was or was not selling any particular product. i try to correct when I believe things are posted incorrectly and try not to "proselytize".

none of the studios of the announced titles has opted out of reselling xbox one game discs.

Originally Posted by Fluribus

Thanks. GOG would be awesome. Unfortunately, my internet connection is very slow. Downloading a CD-size game would take over an hour. I'm stuck with disc-based games. Anything with Steam, or any other kind of check-in, is out.

I routinely download stuff overnight, or when I'm out during the day. Sometimes downloads take several days, though I do pause the download when the Internet is needed for other purposes. GOG and the Humble Bundles don't require any sort of check-in. You don't need an internet connection to install, activate, or run their software. Heck, you don't even need your own internet connection to download it since everything can be done through a web browser (no special software required).

Of course GOG means you're stuck with (often quite old) games and Humble Bundles means you're (usually) stuck with indie software. So you're not going to get the latest and most popular releases. Yet it's perfectly fine if you like the fare.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

No offense, but anyone trying to spin this is pro-customer would have to be employed by Microsoft.

Misinformation is being spread in both directions. I can't help but wonder how many of those outraged gamers download their games through services that do not support resale. From what I've read, this policy exists because Microsoft wants to treat every game as downloadable. The only difference is that you're sometimes "downloading" the game from a disk instead of the Internet.

No. I'm not employed by Microsoft. I don't have a particular love of their products either. On the other hand, I've been hanging around Microsoft bashers for long enough to realize that they will believe and repeat anything negative that they hear.

[Fluribus]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Don't you know anyone with a fast internet connection? Or download at work, maybe (before or after shift)?

Disabled. Can't work. But if someone calls me lame, I have an awesome excuse.

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

none of the studios of the announced titles has opted out of reselling xbox one game discs.

Some have said "We don't hate the used game market." Most that I have seen have said "We are still evaluating what we'll do. We don't even know what Microsoft is really doing." Even if none end up blocking or adding fees, aren't used game sales limited to "retail partners" now?

My take is that they've seen the backlash and they're throwing Microsoft under the bus. "We never asked for this. Don't blame us."

It seems as if Microsoft is trying to push online distribution. The people that like it and can use it will do so without being pushed. The folks that don't or won't be pushed will jump ship.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

i try to correct when I believe things are posted incorrectly and try not to "proselytize".

Then the only correct information you can post is that it is currently unknown which titles will or will not be able to be resold, but that there is the built-in ability to prevent reselling, and to limit reselling to specific retailers.
It is simply not true to say that you can absolutely resell games.

none of the studios of the announced titles has opted out of reselling xbox one game discs.

... yet.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

Thanks. GOG would be awesome. Unfortunately, my internet connection is very slow. Downloading a CD-size game would take over an hour. I'm stuck with disc-based games. Anything with Steam, or any other kind of check-in, is out.

I don't have the fastest connection either, so I feel your pain. The good thing about GOG is, there's a ton of older games that are a lot smaller than modern games. They sell a few modern, multi-GB games, but there are also a lot under 100 MB.

Also, GOG doesn't use any kind of check-in. Once you download an installer (you can use any download manager you want), you don't have to download it again unless you want to.

Ooh, and they're having a sale right now. Must resist. Have already spent way too much on entertainment this month.

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Misinformation is being spread in both directions. I can't help but wonder how many of those outraged gamers download their games through services that do not support resale. From what I've read, this policy exists because Microsoft wants to treat every game as downloadable. The only difference is that you're sometimes "downloading" the game from a disk instead of the Internet.

PC gamers are concerned about DRM, there's a growing anti-DRM movement, which is part of the reason behind the upsurge in indies and DRM-free game sites. We've had a lot of experience with always-online DRM, and it usually causes huge hassles and frequently high-profile failures. Several game companies have backed off from always-online DRM due to the backlash.

Most PC DRM schemes have much, much lower prices than a console game. $3 sales vs. $30 sales. That makes a huge difference in how people value their games. PC games always have piracy as an option - some gamers pay for a copy, then download a cracked version to avoid dealing with DRM.

Also, (partially due to the price differences, partially due to modding / hackability), PC gamers don't rely on selling or trading in used games to fund purchases of new games. So no-resale actually impacts how much a console gamer can engage with the gaming hobby, it's actually a threat to game time.

TL;DR PC and console are totally different markets with different expectations and needs, and this no-resale move is something that MS should have been able to see would cause a huge backlash.

re: 'Downloading' -
That statement makes no sense. From a technological and useability standpoint, there are vast differences between downloading a game and running a game from disc. The same word *cannot* mean both things unless the definition changes, and the implication that Microsoft either can't or won't tell the difference is kind of frightening.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

The machine I got (a netbook) had 64 bit Windows 7 installed. There was no reason not to install the 32 and 16 bit emulator, except that Microsoft was trying to <force> people to abandon their old software and buy new software (from Microsoft). Oracle's Virtual Box proved that.

And by the way, I run an Atari 800 emulator under the XP virtual box. And DOSBox, and...

Computers come and go - but software will run as long as something can execute the instruction set.

It worked. I had been running Office 97 for years, then I had to get a new pc in 2010, It totally rejected 97, and since I was going back to school I had to get Office 2010 for home. But they wisely only made the price I think $50.00 for it. It had the two most important programs that I needed Word & Excel so I was happy.

[Fluribus]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Misinformation is being spread in both directions. I can't help but wonder how many of those outraged gamers download their games through services that do not support resale. From what I've read, this policy exists because Microsoft wants to treat every game as downloadable. The only difference is that you're sometimes "downloading" the game from a disk instead of the Internet.

I don't download games from anybody. I don't like Steam and won't use it. From everything I've heard, Steam doesn't require constant check-ins. The old MP3 DRM didn't require a new check every day. My Android tablet doesn't turn into a brick if I leave the WiFi off. E-readers don't. Aside from Diablo 3 and Sim City, I don't now of anyone doing authentication so restrictively as Xbox One.

Discs can be installed to the 360, but the disc must be in the console to play. There's no lock to the profile. No online checks.They could have offered users an option. Enable the checks and play without the disc. Disable the checks and play with the disc.

No. I'm not employed by Microsoft. I don't have a particular love of their products either. On the other hand, I've been hanging around Microsoft bashers for long enough to realize that they will believe and repeat anything negative that they hear.

I've used most versions of Windows up to 7. I've owned both previous Xboxes. I wanted the new Xbox, until the May reveal. Everything that has soured me on Xbox has come directly from Microsoft..