12% of ebooks are self-published; most are rubbish, claims editor

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by teh603

Katsunami- Using "its" exclusively is still a bit of a typing quirk of mine. It comes from me preferring to be wrong less than half the time (since "it's" doesn't show up much outside of dialog), than 100% of the time.

But I really don't understand why you should be wrong at all. It's honestly not that hard to remember that "its" is a possessive pronoun, and "it's" is a contraction, is it? Why not just memorise it and have done with the matter?

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I must respectfully disagree. Although I work in IT, I write for a living; I spend all day writing design documents, reports, specifications, etc, for business clients. Once you "know" how to write using correct grammar and spelling - and it's simply a matter of practice - that's how you write. I never have to stop and think whether to use "it's" or "its" - my brain knows how to write the right word without conscious thought. Anyone whose "spelling and grammar is all over the place" just hasn't put enough work into their writing to reach a point where they get it right without having to go back and correct it. To say that it's "a job for the proof-reader" is just a cop-out.

I wish it was like that for me. I write quite a bit as well, grants, reports and papers and definitely have to keep making a conscious effort to get things right most of the time. Of course it probably depends on the individual how much time you have to put in before you get things right straight away; in my case 10+ years of probably spending 25% of my time writing unfortunately has not been sufficient.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Soldim

I wish it was like that for me. I write quite a bit as well, grants, reports and papers and definitely have to keep making a conscious effort to get things right most of the time. Of course it probably depends on the individual how much time you have to put in before you get things right straight away; in my case 10+ years of probably spending 25% of my time writing unfortunately has not been sufficient.

Fair point. Perhaps it is something which differs from person to person.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But I really don't understand why you should be wrong at all. It's honestly not that hard to remember that "its" is a possessive pronoun, and "it's" is a contraction, is it? Why not just memorise it and have done with the matter?

I have been a professional editor for more than 30 years and over those years I have noticed that every writer and editor has a spelling or grammar quirk, that is, something that they consistently and persistently get wrong. For example, I recently read an ARC from a well-respected author who has written many books. In every instance of use of farther and further, the author used the wrong term. The author even used a term I have seen but once before: farthermore.

For myself, I know that I always have trouble with compose and comprise, so much so that I have it specially bookmarked in my usage books.

I do agree, Harry, that the more you use a term the more likely you are to use it correctly, but I also know that such a statement is true only 99% of the time. It is that annoying 1% that makes us human.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Their spelling and grammar is all over the place because all they care about is the story. Everything else is the copy editor and proof reader's job.

Sadly, this is a correct view of the perspective of many authors. However, it is an incorrect view. I try to convince authors that grammar and (a little less so) spelling are also the concerns of the authors because if left to the editors and proofreaders, they may well find that what they meant to convey is not conveyed because the editor/proofreader had to interpret and guess at the authors' meaning.

It is not necessary for an author to have perfect spelling or grammar; it is necessary for the author to have a skill level that ensures that the message the author wants to deliver is delivered and received. Editors and proofreaders are not coauthors, yet a sloppily written manuscript puts them in that position.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by crich70

My biggest teacher on how to write properly is the written word itself. There are the rigid rules of Grammar and punctuation and there are the written works of authors like Dickens, Twain, Wells, Verne, Clarke, Asimov, etc. I choose to pay attention more to the authors who have had books published and whose work I enjoy reading than to a rigid set of rules.

I think the fallacy with that approach is that the authors who chose to ignore the rules of grammar did so with knowledge of what the rules were and found that the rules stifled the message they were trying to convey.

The rules of grammar are designed to ensure that communication is understandable. Isaac Asimov, to use one of your examples, deviated from the rules of grammar only after many years of writing that adhered to the rules, that is, after having mastered the rules. Twain deviated to make a point.

I also think you mistake the rules of grammar for a straitjacket. They are not rigid, unbendable rules; they are guides to ensure what you write can be understood by any reader. The rules are always in flux; the only immutable rule of grammar is to write clearly so that any reader can understand your message.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I must respectfully disagree. Although I work in IT, I write for a living; I spend all day writing design documents, reports, specifications, etc, for business clients. Once you "know" how to write using correct grammar and spelling - and it's simply a matter of practice - that's how you write. I never have to stop and think whether to use "it's" or "its" - my brain knows how to write the right word without conscious thought. Anyone whose "spelling and grammar is all over the place" just hasn't put enough work into their writing to reach a point where they get it right without having to go back and correct it. To say that it's "a job for the proof-reader" is just a cop-out.

But you're a proof reader too. Writing and proof reading are different skills, and it's rare to find them in the same person. With fiction it is the story that counts, not where they put their apostrophes. Things like that can be fixed later.

[mr ploppy]

[QUOTE=rhadin;2542921]I have been a professional editor for more than 30 years and over those years I have noticed that every writer and editor has a spelling or grammar quirk, that is, something that they consistently and persistently get wrong. /QUOTE]

I've noticed that as well. Even when you tell them what it is, they are still there in the next one.

[ProfCrash]

Harry,

You should be profficient, you do the samething every day. It should be second nature to you. I do not write papers any more, I write in power point with bullets.

I was an A student in English when it came to reading comprehension, vocabulary, and creative writing. I was a D student in grammar. Sentence structure, memorizing anything beyond noun, verb, and preposition were simply past me. I studied. My parents made me and I had tutors. There are many a story about four hour homework sessions between word problems in math and grammar homework. But it never made any sense to me. Diagraming sentnces was a waste of time. I have no idea what a split infinitive is and I end sentences with prepositions. I write the way I speak.

Which is why I hired a proofreader and always asked freinds to review my work in college and grad school.

Somethings come easily to some people and not others. It annoys the crap out of me when anyone says "I don't get how people cannot do X" whether that is math, grammar, geography or whatever. I am sure you have your weaknesses and I am sure there is someone out there who has no clue why it is that you can't do X easily.

Take it from a smart person with eight learning disabilities and ADHD, learning is not easy for everyone. What strikes you as simple is probably difficult for someone else. Be patient and kind, it goes a long way to actually helping people learn because they are more likely to listen to you then when you are rolling your eyes telling them that it is obvious.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rhadin

I have been a professional editor for more than 30 years and over those years I have noticed that every writer and editor has a spelling or grammar quirk, that is, something that they consistently and persistently get wrong. For example, I recently read an ARC from a well-respected author who has written many books. In every instance of use of farther and further, the author used the wrong term. The author even used a term I have seen but once before: farthermore.

For myself, I know that I always have trouble with compose and comprise, so much so that I have it specially bookmarked in my usage books.

I do agree, Harry, that the more you use a term the more likely you are to use it correctly, but I also know that such a statement is true only 99% of the time. It is that annoying 1% that makes us human.

I completely agree with you that are things that trip everyone up, and I have to confess that, without looking it up, I don't know the difference between "further" and "farther". Indeed, I don't think I was consciously aware that the word "farther" even existed. I don't expect authors to know the difference between "a while" and "awhile" (because it's something that only grammar pedants care about) and I've completely given up on expecting people to correctly use "who" and "whom" (although continuing to use them correctly myself).

It's the common stuff that bugs me, and incorrect use of apostrophes comes right at the top of the list, I have to admit.

There are things that I see in books that make me shudder. I recently read something in which the author had (completely consistently) used the word "of" instead of the abbreviation 've; eg "we should of gone out", "we might of done this", "we could of done that". Of course I realise that "should've" sounds like "should of", but to actually write "should of" is really going too far.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Take it from a smart person with eight learning disabilities and ADHD, learning is not easy for everyone. What strikes you as simple is probably difficult for someone else. Be patient and kind, it goes a long way to actually helping people learn because they are more likely to listen to you then when you are rolling your eyes telling them that it is obvious.

I am kind and patient . I will kindly and patiently say to someone:

"Its" is a possessive pronoun; "it's" is a contraction

until the cows come home if it'll get the message across.

You're a wise person; you know what your shortcomings as a writer are and you get your work checked because of that. The people I have the issues with are those who have failings of grammar and spelling and don't get their stuff corrected before releasing it.

[ProfCrash]

OHHHH an oppertunity to bring the toic on track.

So if more Indie authors worked with editors and proofreaders, their stories would be easier to read for many folks and people would be less whiney about finding the good ones.

And yes, I am lazy which is why I like lists and the like. It helps me get going. Once I get started, it is hard to stop me. Ask anyone in the tea thread what happened when introduced to Oolongs and Puerh. Someone posted about teas I had not tried, sent a suggestion or two, and now I have 6 different Oolongs and 8 different Puerhs I am drinking. I might be lazy when it comes to getting started but pique my interest and it is off to the races.

Given that I have a backlog of books on my TBR list I doubt I am going to be jumping on anything soon but if someone has suggestions about indies to look for that write something to the Codex Alera by Jim Butcher, Robin Hobb type stuff I am game.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

OHHHH an oppertunity to bring the toic on track.

So if more Indie authors worked with editors and proofreaders, their stories would be easier to read for many folks and people would be less whiney about finding the good ones.

Exactly. Something which I've said more times than I can remember in the "Writers' Corner" forum here at MR .

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Fair point. Perhaps it is something which differs from person to person.

I think it does and age makes a difference. So does the speed of the idea. When I wrote technical documents, it was a slower and more thought out process. When I write fiction, sometimes I get up at 3 in the morning and I'm jotting down phrases I want to use, dialogue that I always think is HILARIOUS at 3 in the morning and full paragraphs interspersed with "put descriptions here."

I have learned to take as much time as possible, even when "jotting" to get things spelled right and as close as possible to the real thing. It saves time later. But as I age, I'll find that the next morning, I might actually have written "week" instead of "weak." Do I know the difference? Even on auto-pilot? Absolutely. COMPLETELY. But apparently at 3 in the morning (or maybe even in the passion of 3 in the afternoon) my brain fired some incorrect cylinders or my fingers had to type without the help of my brain.

As for storyline and grammar, it's become my opinion that very few writers can hit 100 percent without other eyeballs on it. I literally read though my novels at least a 100 times. Part of the problem is that I read through my novels At Least a 100 times. I make changes. Sometimes a white Mustang is going to be in two places at once. I know I moved it, but somehow forgot to take it from the other place where it was originally needed. A second set of eyeballs? Priceless. And not every editor will catch that sort of thing either. Some people read for word choice and excel at it. Some are grammar police. Some have a great feel for the story and characters and can tell you when you're stepping too obviously to the side for the sake of the story.

The average reader is all of those editors and none of them. As writers we have to cover a lot of bases. And just like in trad publishing, I think we learn and grow. I don't think my first books are as strong as later books. I learned. I got more eyeballs on the novels. I keep learning. With every book I swear I've hit my peak. There IS NO MORE TO GIVE. Then with the next book, I hope to find that magical plot twist that is even more clever than the last...

[shalym]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Given that I have a backlog of books on my TBR list I doubt I am going to be jumping on anything soon but if someone has suggestions about indies to look for that write something to the Codex Alera by Jim Butcher, Robin Hobb type stuff I am game.

Have you tried David Dalglish's books? http://www.amazon.com/David-Dalglish...r_dp_pel_pop_1

Shari