Editor of SFWA Bulletin resigns

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

A few points:

- I don't think anyone is saying that women authors or readers can't be sexist against men or women. The fact that there are sexist women doesn't mean that sexism by the other gender suddenly becomes okay.

Of course "real world" sexism is despicable, but I see no harm whatever in fantasy depictions of sexual desire, whether it be erotica written by women for a female audience, or chainmail bikini-clad warriors aimed at a male audience. It's escapist fantasy, and to suggest that the reader isn't capable of enjoying it as such is a little insulting to the intelligence of the reader, I think.

That's completely different to sexist comments in editorials (such as "Barbie is the ideal woman", or whatever it was). That just plain wrong, and complaints about it are absolutely justified. The SFWA needs to take action over such things. But that's different to saying that a fantasy painting of "Red Sonja" is degrading to women: it's no more degrading than a Harlequin romance is degrading to men. It's not real. It's fantasy.

[pdurrant]

One doesn't get a "get out of sexism free" card by just saying it's fantasy.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

One doesn't get a "get out of sexism free" card by just saying it's fantasy.

I see no protests about Harlequin and their degrading depiction of men as objects of sexual exploitation. The romance/erotica genre sells way, way more books than SF/Fantasy, and it's pretty much all depicting men in a sexually-exploitative manner. As I said, I see no harm whatsoever in such escapist fantasy. Are you suggesting that it's wrong for readers to enjoy such books, or for authors to write them?

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I see no protests about Harlequin and their degrading depiction of men as objects of sexual exploitation. The romance/erotica genre sells way, way more books than SF/Fantasy, and it's pretty much all depicting men in a sexually-exploitative manner.

Harry, interesting as the discussion as to why that difference exists probably would be (and I also have wondered about it often), I'm not sure MR is the place for it...

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I see no protests about Harlequin and their degrading depiction of men as objects of sexual exploitation. The romance/erotica genre sells way, way more books than SF/Fantasy, and it's pretty much all depicting men in a sexually-exploitative manner. As I said, I see no harm whatsoever in such escapist fantasy. Are you suggesting that it's wrong for readers to enjoy such books, or for authors to write them?

There's nothing wrong with escapist fantasy or romance.

There is more protest about sexism towards women because women are by a vast amount the major victims of sexism in our society.

But to continue this discussion I think I would need to get into subjects that are not appropriate outside the P&R forum, so I won't be responding again in this thread.

[HarryT]

I'll start a new thread in P&R to continue the discussion. You're right - it's more appropriate there.

[HarryT]

I've created a thread in P&R for those who'd like to continue this interesting discussion there.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Not in the slightest. My point is simply that sexual exploitation is not confined to male authors, or male readers. In addition to the entire romance/erotica genre, which generations of female readers have enjoyed as harmless escapism, within the SF/Fantasy genre we have huge bestsellers such as the "Twilight" series, written by a woman and aimed squarely at satisfying the sexual fantasies of teenage girls. Can you not accept that it's possible to enjoy escapist fantasy without projecting the attitudes portrayed in such books onto the real world? Sex sells. That's a fact which is exploited by both male and female authors.

Your point is valid, but it really has nothing to do with the article. Your posts on the subject come across at times as though you're saying, "Well, women do it too, so what's the big deal with the cover and what they said?"

Since I've seen you post numerous times around the forums on various topics, I know you like to dissect arguments and I don't think you are really trying to say there is no issue here because "everyone does it." It's just coming across that way because it's a side point.

FWIW.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Since I've seen you post numerous times around the forums on various topics, I know you like to dissect arguments and I don't think you are really trying to say there is no issue here because "everyone does it."

No, I'm not saying that at all. Join the thread in P&R and I'll explain what I mean .

EDIT: Now that's weird. Why has the system attributed that quote to "pdurrant"?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I see no protests about Harlequin and their degrading depiction of men as objects of sexual exploitation. The romance/erotica genre sells way, way more books than SF/Fantasy, and it's pretty much all depicting men in a sexually-exploitative manner. As I said, I see no harm whatsoever in such escapist fantasy. Are you suggesting that it's wrong for readers to enjoy such books, or for authors to write them?

If it makes you feel better there are a lot of books I don't buy and don't read because of that sexism. Although having read a lot of Harlequin in my youth, men weren't really "exploited" in there. Fantasy yes--about how men might/should put a woman on a pedestal and...they are the hero with money and kindness not seen through the ages...and they see only good and perfection in the woman be she fat, old, bitchy, etc. If anything many of those books exploit the woman, making her look rather helpless or unable to care for herself. It's more common today to have the woman in a place of power and with the wealth in those stories.

Now as for the covers, that's a bit of a different story.

And I do find many of those covers insulting, degrading and outright stupid.

But, again, just because it happens in romance and other genres doesn't mean it should happen in Sci/fi or anywhere else.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I'm not saying that at all. Join the thread in P&R and I'll explain what I mean .

EDIT: Now that's weird. Why has the system attributed that quote to "pdurrant"?

Ever since the Christmas murder story, I've been suspicious of that mouse...Give me my words back! Stop thief!!!

[TallMomof2]

What is offensive is "lady editor". In the 80's I was once introduced by a superior (at least 5 grade levels above me and 40 years older) as a "girl engineer" to a large audience. With humor I quickly corrected him and commenced with my presentation.

I'm appalled but not surprised that almost 30 years later not much has changed.

[Ninjalawyer]

Whether it's sexist or not, I might still avoid SFWA because of the cover because it manages to be both juvenile and amateurish; it's like something a kid in junior high would scribble on the cover of their Trapper Keeper during math class. The fact that SFWA employs people with incredibly backward-looking views for a publication supposedly aimed at forward-looking stories would definitely keep me away.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by TallMomof2

What is offensive is "lady editor". In the 80's I was once introduced by a superior (at least 5 grade levels above me and 40 years older) as a "girl engineer" to a large audience. With humor I quickly corrected him and commenced with my presentation.

I'm appalled but not surprised that almost 30 years later not much has changed.

In the early 2000's one of my female employees was waiting on a customer. He demanded to see the jeweler. She asked him what he wanted to see the jeweler about. He did not want to tell her. She informed him that she needed to be able to tell me what I was needed up front for. He then told her he wanted the battery in his watch replaced. She then informed him that she could do that. His reply was " you can do that little girl?" You could see the steam coming out of her ears when he said that. And yes she was fully trained in watch battery replacement. You still find a lot men with this attitude in the Deep South even today.
Apache

[Rizla]

An eye-opener. If it is run by myopic and arrogant people, does it mean the SFWA is damaging to the genre?

BTW the cover is irrelevant and tame.