What gun and ammo?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Brass can usually be tied to the specific gun that fired it, and always to the make of the gun that fired it. Even with almost not space between the muzzle and the skull, there is going to be a LOT of back spatter of blood, brain, and bone. Heads do not go lightly unto this good night... You'll need some sort of 'shield' to keep the shooter from getting spattered upon. Should your victim be wearing a sports jacket, quickly raising the tail up to the base of the head and firing through it would work. Just don't leave epithelials from her hand on the fabric.

A .25 caliber round carries a LOT more powder than a .22, and thus usually much louder. However, if she had pulled the slug, dumped most of the powder, and re-seated the slug (not a very difficult task) that would eliminate much of the noise and still provide enough penetration.


Stitchawl

Hand-loading was why I mentioned .25 ACP. It's the smallest of the readily available centerfire pistol rounds. The actions of most guns can be can be adjusted to a lower pressure load...Furthermore, if for plot reasons you want a gun that is retained, (say a Walther PP variant, pre 1968) the assassin can easily swap barrels, and just dispose of the "used" barrel. Plus, they are very small and have multishot capability, just in case...

Speed and surprise will be important, more so that point blank range. Example...

Target is urinating. You are in a closed stall behind him. Flush the toilet, start the door opening while having the gun level and approximately on target (perp has looked through the door crack and saw the layout). As the target come in line of sight, final track and fire. (perp has not left the stall). Range 6-10 feet. Time, 1 second or less, depending on the perp's reflexes. No point blank problems. Perp exits the stall, verifies the kill and exits...

In all these scenarios, there is one thing unconsidered. Sound of the body hitting the floor...

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Actually, a garrote made with a 'Prussic Knot' would work for her...
This type of knot is self-jamming slip knot. Walk up behind him, drop the loop over his head and pull. She doesn't even have to stand around and wait. The cord will not loosen around his neck unless he can both reach as well as know how to work the knot. And he only has a few seconds to do so. He's dead... She doesn't have any blood spatter, and not even in the room when he actually dies 25 seconds later. Again, epithelials on the rope if she is bare handed, but that's easily rectified.


Stitchawl

In those few seconds, he might draw and shoot her. He's an armed assassin, too...

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Hand-loading was why I mentioned .25 ACP. It's the smallest of the readily available centerfire pistol rounds. The actions of most guns can be can be adjusted to a lower pressure load...Furthermore, if for plot reasons you want a gun that is retained, (say a Walther PP variant, pre 1968) the assassin can easily swap barrels, and just dispose of the "used" barrel. Plus, they are very small and have multishot capability, just in case...

Speed and surprise will be important, more so that point blank range. Example...

Target is urinating. You are in a closed stall behind him. Flush the toilet, start the door opening while having the gun level and approximately on target (perp has looked through the door crack and saw the layout). As the target come in line of sight, final track and fire. (perp has not left the stall). Range 6-10 feet. Time, 1 second or less, depending on the perp's reflexes. No point blank problems. Perp exits the stall, verifies the kill and exits...

In all these scenarios, there is one thing unconsidered. Sound of the body hitting the floor...

Ah but they would probably have good sound proofing in the walls I would think. I mean who wants to hear the sound of a toilet flushing while trying to eat their dinner? Add to that the fact that most people talk while eating in a busy restaurant and the sound of the wait staff moving about delivering orders, clearing tables, etc. and I'd guess the noise of the body hitting the floor would be unheard and since the gun would have a silencer on it there is a good chance that it might be many minutes if not longer before anyone found the body.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

In those few seconds, he might draw and shoot her. He's an armed assassin, too...

Possible... but when you air supply is suddenly cut off one's first reaction is survival, training or not. As a trained scuba diver who's run out of air a few times in the past, I can tell you that the thing that saved me was 'KNOWING' exactly what to do to keep myself alive 120 ft under water, and having practiced it before. But I had to know I had a back-up plan (actually two of them, for that very situation.) He doesn't have that luxury. All he knows is that his air is shut off. If he can live through the first few seconds with his wits about him, you're right... she's dead. If not, and the chances are better than good that he's going to want to breath, all's well that ends.


Stitchawl

[Penforhire]

A possible problem with a garrote in that situation, even assuming a smaller woman gets it properly in place, is the proximity of walls for the larger man to bodily smash a smaller person into. Besides, if she has the ability to slip a garrote over him she could try an ice pick (wine corkscrew?) under the skull for a faster quieter kill.

[Lazer]

"A .25 caliber round carries a LOT more powder than a .22, and thus usually much louder. However, if she had pulled the slug, dumped most of the powder, and re-seated the slug (not a very difficult task) that would eliminate much of the noise and still provide enough penetration."

The problem with this is that all of the .25 cartridges I know are chambered in semi-autos and a reduced load would fail to cycle the firearm. What assassin is going to want this?

Someone mentioned removing the rifling inside the barrel. From an investigators view, have at it, he's now looking for a weapon that's been modified, and undoubtedly the act of drilling out the rifling inside the barrel is going to leave milling marks the forensic examiner is going to have a hay-day with when it comes to linking the projectile to the weapon.

Blowback causing an auto to jam? Not in the real world, but this is fiction.

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by Lazer

Someone mentioned removing the rifling inside the barrel. From an investigators view, have at it, he's now looking for a weapon that's been modified, and undoubtedly the act of drilling out the rifling inside the barrel is going to leave milling marks the forensic examiner is going to have a hay-day with when it comes to linking the projectile to the weapon.

I know diddley about guns but...

If you use a drill then yes, you would definitely leave marks that would be an examiner's dream come true. No drill will follow a hole greater than 1/3 its diameter without a lot of chatter. The smart criminal would use a reamer.

How deep is rifling? It can't be much deeper than 0.015 in. I'd start with a straight flute reamer to avoid getting caught in the rifling spiral, then finish and size with a straight reamer and a lot of cutting oil.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by 5thWiggle

I know diddley about guns but...

If you use a drill then yes, you would definitely leave marks that would be an examiner's dream come true. No drill will follow a hole greater than 1/3 its diameter without a lot of chatter. The smart criminal would use a reamer.

How deep is rifling? It can't be much deeper than 0.015 in. I'd start with a straight flute reamer to avoid getting caught in the rifling spiral, then finish and size with a straight reamer and a lot of cutting oil.

+1. Perzactly.

Hitch

[Lazer]

I find this thread rather humorous; a bunch of semi-pro writers attempting to create the perfect murder.

-Any machining inside a barrel, either with a rifling button, drill bit, or reamer will leave machining marks that will more than likely be transferred to a bullet when fired.
-Removing the rifling from a barrel will reduce the velocity of the projectile and horribly reduce accuracy.
-A recovered bullet having no land and groove impressions, on its face, is an evidence class characteristic that is so unique that it's grossly significant.
-Finding the same caliber weapon as that of the bullet and discovering that it had its rifling removed is great inculpatory evidence of pre-mediation. Since the barrel is reamed from, lets say .22 to .24 to get rid of the rifling we are going to end up with an nice unique bullet of .24 caliber. "Excellent," said the inspector as he looked at the dial on the calipers.
-Since the weapon used at this scene is probably from a semi-auto, it would eject the fired shell casing which may or may not be easy to recover before the shooter left the scene –certainly a challenge for anyone wanting to flee. Breech face and firing pin impressions on fired shell casings are easier to link to a specific firearm than a bullet.

So why ream a barrel? Why not just throw the weapon off the bridge or better yet, wipe it clean and dump it at the scene so it doesn't link back to the shooter?

L

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Lazer

I find this thread rather humorous; a bunch of semi-pro writers attempting to create the perfect murder.

-Any machining inside a barrel, either with a rifling button, drill bit, or reamer will leave machining marks that will more than likely be transferred to a bullet when fired.
-Removing the rifling from a barrel will reduce the velocity of the projectile and horribly reduce accuracy.
-A recovered bullet having no land and groove impressions, on its face, is an evidence class characteristic that is so unique that it's grossly significant.
-Finding the same caliber weapon as that of the bullet and discovering that it had its rifling removed is great inculpatory evidence of pre-mediation. Since the barrel is reamed from, lets say .22 to .24 to get rid of the rifling we are going to end up with an nice unique bullet of .24 caliber. "Excellent," said the inspector as he looked at the dial on the calipers.
-Since the weapon used at this scene is probably from a semi-auto, it would eject the fired shell casing which may or may not be easy to recover before the shooter left the scene –certainly a challenge for anyone wanting to flee. Breech face and firing pin impressions on fired shell casings are easier to link to a specific firearm than a bullet.

So why ream a barrel? Why not just throw the weapon off the bridge or better yet, wipe it clean and dump it at the scene so it doesn't link back to the shooter?

L

There is also the problem of GSR or Gun Shot Residue to deal with. When you fire a gun tiny bits of powder stick to everything in the immediate area including the shooter and his/her clothes. So unless they make a clean get away from the scene when the police test them for GSR the results will send up some rather large red flags.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Lazer

I find this thread rather humorous; a bunch of semi-pro writers attempting to create the perfect murder.

L

Not a writer. Just a shooter with other shooters and reloaders in the house. Author seems to indicate that the weapon is retained, or that it's used (a .25, maybe?) somewhere else in the book, otherwise, yes, of course, clean it and throw it is the simplest Occam's Razor approach.

Hitch

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Lazer

"A .25 caliber round carries a LOT more powder than a .22, and thus usually much louder. However, if she had pulled the slug, dumped most of the powder, and re-seated the slug (not a very difficult task) that would eliminate much of the noise and still provide enough penetration."

The problem with this is that all of the .25 cartridges I know are chambered in semi-autos and a reduced load would fail to cycle the firearm. What assassin is going to want this?

Someone mentioned removing the rifling inside the barrel. From an investigators view, have at it, he's now looking for a weapon that's been modified, and undoubtedly the act of drilling out the rifling inside the barrel is going to leave milling marks the forensic examiner is going to have a hay-day with when it comes to linking the projectile to the weapon.

Blowback causing an auto to jam? Not in the real world, but this is fiction.

Spring tension in a standard handgun action can be altered to fit a particular pressure zone...

[Stitchawl]

What would we do without CSI-Las Vegas or NCIS? We'd be stuck writing stories about Dick, Jane, and Spot!


Stitchawl

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

What would we do without CSI-Las Vegas or NCIS? We'd be stuck writing stories about Dick, Jane, and Spot!


Stitchawl

And, god forbid, nobody would know what GSR is. Probably an entire generation of Jailhouse Lawyers wouldn't be able to argue about whether or not a mythical fictional weapon would/wouldn't be traceable. Oh, the Humanity!

Hitch

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

I've been fooling around and writing stuff, on and off, for my own amusement for a few years. Now I'm conidering testing the waters to see if I have what it requires.

One of the things that will happen is a very close up execution in a toilet inside a restaurant. Obviously the killer will need a suppresor on the gun, but it should probably also be very small calibre with some kind of special ammunition in order to keep the sound level at a minimum (toilets have tiles and it creates a good accoustic echo). Is there some HP where it is possible to understand what is required given the environmental limitations?

The obvious and only choice is the gun that James Bond uses, a Walther PPK.

http://www.waltherarms.com/products/handguns/ppk/