Amazon publishing fan fic

[RHWright]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

They're looking to catch the next E.L. James before she can make it big without giving them a cut; they're not looking to actually publish fanfic.

This is the transparent motive to me.

If readers get more stories in a world they enjoy, all the better.

As a writer, not sure if I would go for the terms, though. Since I've never been inspired to write fan-fic—at least since I was 6 or 7 and typed up a really awesome (to a child's mind) team-up of Spider-Man and the Avengers. Of course, I'm dating myself as 30+ years later Spider-Man is an Avenger. <sigh>

[ApK]

Originally Posted by RHWright

at least since I was 6 or 7 and typed up a really awesome (to a child's mind) team-up of Spider-Man and the Avengers. Of course, I'm dating myself as 30+ years later Spider-Man is an Avenger. <sigh>

And yet I bet you never got a dime of royalties from Marvel. Grr! That make Hulk mad!

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ApK

And yet I bet you never got a dime of royalties from Marvel. Grr! That make Hulk mad!

Don't be ridiculous--Marvel paid royalties of 30% of every sale!

[glos]

RE this, the OTW (Organization for Transformative Works) tried to explain amazon's terms.
here's the link if you're interested
http://transformativeworks.org/news/...worlds-program

here's the beginning of the article

There's been a lot of talk about Kindle Worlds lately, and the OTW has received some questions about its legal implications. The OTW has long maintained that noncommercial fan fiction is fair use, and Amazon's new program does not change that in any way. It also doesn't change anything about the AO3's continued mission to provide a permanent platform for noncommercial fan fiction. (And don't forget, works on the AO3 are readable on the Kindle and other handheld platforms.)
So should fan writers put their works on Kindle Worlds? That is, of course, up to you. We believe that every author should make up their own mind about whether they want to publish their work on a particular platform. However, we also believe that every person should have a full understanding of the terms they are agreeing to by doing so. We've reviewed the information Amazon has made available to date, and have tried to explain the practical implications in this post.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Don't be ridiculous--Marvel paid royalties of 30% of every sale!

Only 30%? Pfft...cheap b@st@ards.

Originally Posted by glos

RE this, the OTW (Organization for Transformative Works) tried to explain amazon's terms.
here's the link if you're interested
http://transformativeworks.org/news/...worlds-program

I didn't know there was such an organization. I'll have to find some time to see what kind of case they make.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Shrug. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Creating a fully-populated, internally consistent, world is difficult.
Do people writing Star Trek/Buffy/... novels get the same payment split as authors writing original works? I doubt it.

Why do you think that is difficult? To me it seems like creating a world is pretty easy.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ApK

I didn't know there was such an organization. I'll have to find some time to see what kind of case they make.

They're the group that runs the fanfic site with ebook downloads. They also have an academic journal, Transformative Works and Cultures.

[citac]

Originally Posted by teh603

There's also the take that Loki is a trickster god like Hermes or Coyote, which is a role that IIRC has no place in a monotheistic system. Monotheistic religions are always srs bsns, at least in the minds of their priests and more fundamentalist devotees. Christian editors would have thus written Loki as a flat-out god of evil, just like how they (and some greeks before them) wrote Set(h) as a god of evil.

Other possibilities I remember include Loki as a fire god and Thor's drinking buddy (Mead Horn of the Giants), part of a seasonal cycle (Death of Baldur) akin to the modern Oak King- Holly King cycle, and possibly a punisher of those who show off too their divine- given blessings too much (also Death of Baldur).

:nods: I was having a discussion yesterday with someone whose ancestors once worshipped Norse gods, and they are not at all happy about how their ancestry was taken and molded into something totally different from what they were. For someone like that, writing about the Aesir as portrayed in the Marvel universe and bringing them closer to what they view as a more appropriate setting/characterization can be empowering.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Kindle Worlds sounds like another of Amazon Publishing's ingenious inroads to collecting revenues on IP f/k/a publishers' profits: "We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you." (Why should Amazon own an author's original character?)

"This isn't Amazon figuring out how to make money off fan fiction; this is Amazon entering into a partnership with media properties to crowdsource officially licensed novelizations."
-- Malinda Lo, "Amazon Tries to Monetize Fan Fiction"

In the more selfish sense, what I mind as a consumer is the idea of massive numbers of fanfic books appearing in every bookstore-wide search -- searches which, in my experience, tend to be weighed down with irrelevant results already.

I'd be far more open to the idea if fanfic were only included in searches at the user's prompting.

Like the Kindles I've used, the Amazon Store isn't the best at displaying specific lists of the kinds of books I want -- mostly because it never stops pitching the many it wants me to buy as opposed to the few I might actually want to own.

[citac]

Originally Posted by ApK

A tangential aside, since whether or not it's easier or harder is not the point at all, but I'm not buying the "harder" argument for one second.

Good writing is good writing and it may be hard no matter what, but starting with a successful, popular idea does nothing but make it easier.

Like in TV, comparatively lots of writers write or contribute to episodes of successful series, but far fewer create a successful, popular show that goes on to employee those episode writers, and generate fan fic.

[snip]

ApK

I don't necessarily agree with the statement that a popular, sucessful idea makes it easier. I believe it can actually make it harder, especially because the ir a large number of writers who come in to write an episode of show, and have no interest or knowledge of a character and a story arc that came before. They come in and write their one-off story, and the audience goes, No, [character] would NEVER do that/act that way! Hence what in fanfiction would be known as OOC - Out Of Character - behavior, going against what was established previously. It's been a long time since I've seen it last, but I think Star Trek Voyager had this a lot; I certainly remember facepalming while watching some episodes. I like consistency in a character, as my viewing habits are very character driven - all my favorite shows had a large number of characters interacting regularly, such as Homicide: Life on the Street and Firefly, to name just a couple. Plot is welcome, but is not why I watch something. Maybe it's my own bias showing, but it seems to me a lot of fanfiction writers feel the same.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by citac

I don't necessarily agree with the statement that a popular, sucessful idea makes it easier. I believe it can actually make it harder, especially because the ir a large number of writers who come in to write an episode of show, and have no interest or knowledge of a character and a story arc that came before. They come in and write their one-off story, and the audience goes, No, [character] would NEVER do that/act that way! Hence what in fanfiction would be known as OOC - Out Of Character - behavior, going against what was established previously. It's been a long time since I've seen it last, but I think Star Trek Voyager had this a lot; I certainly remember facepalming while watching some episodes. I like consistency in a character, as my viewing habits are very character driven - all my favorite shows had a large number of characters interacting regularly, such as Homicide: Life on the Street and Firefly, to name just a couple. Plot is welcome, but is not why I watch something. Maybe it's my own bias showing, but it seems to me a lot of fanfiction writers feel the same.

I don't think that what's going on there is what you think.
Series shows have writer's bibles to inform new writers about those elements, and they have permanent producers and a show-runner who has final say about what gets produced. Brannon Braga, in latter-day Star Trek's case particularly, has expressed utter contempt for in-universe continuity and consistency, and was, very often, The Man who esbalished the character in the first place, so you can be sure that all those "Out of Character" moments you face-palmed over would have occurred even if he was the one and only writer on the show.

Back on to the original off topic tangent, however: I stand by my statement. While there is a rare, truly brilliant piece of prose about absolutely nothing and out of all context, the first hurdle in most fiction is creating something that a reader cares about.

In the case of fan fiction, by definition, you are starting with something that has garnered fans. It's already captured imaginations, it's already proven to be a muse for people who want to create in that world.
That's a huge head start no matter how you slice it.

There is no objective or generalized difference in difficultly between writing a good in-character scene for a character you established 10 chapters ago, or one someone else created 100 episodes ago. A fan would know either character equally well. In fact she probably knows the 100 episode character better. Because she probably hasn't thought up all the details of the new character yet, and thinking up new, lasting ideas is hard. That's why authors do drafts and rewrites.
For the 100 episode character, the fan author has already latched on to the established traits that resonate with her and are inspiring her to write about it.

So no, I see no argument for fan fiction being harder.

What's the advice given to writers having a hard time getting started? "Write about what you know."
Why? Because it's easier to plumb what's already in your head than to come up with something totally new from scratch.

[citac]

And fan writers too write drafts and rewrites, and have beta readers who offer advice on the grammar, style, consistency and everything else they feel would help the fan writer remain in character as much as possible. I don't see how those writers and their support structure (let's add fanartists there as well, for those writers who include covers with their work) are different from tie-in writers. (Which reminds me, I have a Big Bang notice to send out soon.)

So, let's just say that fan fiction is different, done for a different purpose and audience, and just as valid as other types of writing. Can we agree on that?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by citac

So, let's just say that fan fiction is different, done for a different purpose and audience, and just as valid as other types of writing. Can we agree on that?

Depends what you mean by "valid."

If by "just as valid" you mean "should be allowed to publish and/or profit from someone else's IP" then, no. In that case the difference between fanfic and tie-in writers is clear...the latter has permission, the former doesn't.

If by "just as valid" you mean every bit as potentially important, creative, expressive, significant, enjoyable, valuable, literary, challenging...,"then sure.

[citac]

Originally Posted by ApK

Depends what you mean by "valid."

If by "just as valid" you mean "should be allowed to publish and/or profit from someone else's IP" then, no. In that case the difference between fanfic and tie-in writers is clear...the latter has permission, the former doesn't.

If by "just as valid" you mean every bit as potentially important, creative, expressive, significant, enjoyable, valuable, literary, challenging...,"then sure.

It's the second meaning I had in mind, definitely.

Ideally, this is what we would have: 1. original work, with an author who retains all the rights due to them; 2. authorized derivatives in any/all/some media, for which permission would be obtained/royalties paid to the author; 3. non-profit transformative works clearly marked and credited as such, free of C&D letters and threats of lawsuits.

If at any point the original author decides they do not want transformative works to be written about their characters/world, they should make their opinion known and that opinion should be respected. (In fanfiction circles, when a fan author develops an Alternative Universe - say, a show set in the Wild West is reimagined as happening in modern day law enforcement - they may declare it a Closed universe, with only them writing in it until all the details are fleshed out, after which it's declared an Open universe.)

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by John Carroll

.....This, in my opinion, is a semi-brilliant idea. I know so many people who write fan fic. Although, it does say 'authorized stories'. I don't think it's enough.

What might constitute authorized stories, may I ask, and who authorizes them? Amazon, the publisher, original author, some combination? My apologies if this was already discussed and I missed it.

Also, MobileRead has had a policy banning uploads of fanfic ebboks to the library. Is that policy still in effect?