What gun and ammo?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Thank you for the ideas. The shooting is a spot of the moment decision, she doesn't have a contract on the victim, he is the competition, she sees a chance to eliminate him (and thus starts a chain of events), tree toilet is in a restaurant, ask she need is to keep the bang of the gun low enough to not create a reaction out in the restaurant, she can only get away with it because they are the only two in the bathroom.
Despite her having no morals whatsoever, i want the reader to sympathize with her actions, part of that is being ingenious in the given situation.

Well, then, if it's a crime of opportunity, she needs to be carrying a .22, preferably either an MKIII Ruger or a Beretta. As far as a silencer goes, if she's a pro, she ought to have it on her, although they are not as fast to affix as Hollywood wants you to think. (Make sure you have it turn the correct way when she puts it on, if it's not on already; lots of Hollywood types manage to shoot an actor turning it the wrong way, although how on earth, only heaven knows--must be plastic or toy guns, not real ones). The Beretta is short enough so that she could have a silenced Beretta in her purse/pocket (assumes largish coat, like a trench/raincoat) already assembled.

If detection is the issue, that's a different story, but a silenced .22 is not going to be heard in a public toilet unless it has paper-thin walls. This is a crap video (plus it has an ad in front), but this is what they sound like when properly silenced. There are factors that go into the weapon and slide selection, but...you could get away with this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC8bzPlInUw If, after you watch this, you search around for similar videos (suppressed .22's as search terms), you can get a good idea of the range of sound, to help you setting the scene, and the likelihood that she would not be detected, etc.

There's no other "equalizer" for a 90lb. dripping wet woman (or one up to 150-160) and a 225lb. man. No knifing, no garroting, that's kinda silly stuff. Not to be dismissive, but anyone who's ever done any close-contact fighting, or even sport fighting, knows that the kind of ridiculous scenarios like those in, say, MI:Ghost Protocol are just that, silly beyond belief. Is it possible that a well-hidden woman could garrote a guy a foot taller than she is? Sure, maybe, but she's not going to stand a chance if there's any kind of "tussle." Not even a well-trained 90lb. woman and a drunken, sloppy 225-lb. guy, no matter what anyone tries to sell. No woman is going to kick a 100lb. heavier guy's ass, not even a guy who's "only" 60lbs heavier. A big guy lands one punch on a much smaller woman, and she'll go down, regardless of toughness, training, etc. It's physics; not fair, but F=MA. This isn't Billie Jean King and Bobbie Riggs; this is a fistfight.

It's possible a woman could land one good kick, if she had the advantage of surprise, was very small (thus short, with a tight CG, so she could wind up and release very rapidly), but unless she lands that perfectly, the fight is then over. No matter HOW hard a 125-lb. woman punches, most guys over 200 aren't going to go down. Sad, but true. ;-) And if the Muslim guy is the ubiquitous "assassin of fiction," which means not just a gunner, but a proficient skilled master of (insert martial art and killing techniques here), it's unlikely she can beat him to death in a "fair fight." Thus, sneakiness and just outright killing are her best weapon. I don't see much you can do here, in any sort of realistic sense, in terms of cleverness of McGyvering a murderous solution, all givens being, well, given.

Anyway...suppressed .22 is my best advice. We have competitive shooters and loaders "in de house," so...that's my best advice to you.

Hitch

[forsooth]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Thank you for the ideas. The shooting is a spot of the moment decision, she doesn't have a contract on the victim, he is the competition, she sees a chance to eliminate him (and thus starts a chain of events), tree toilet is in a restaurant, ask she need is to keep the bang of the gun low enough to not create a reaction out in the restaurant, she can only get away with it because they are the only two in the bathroom.
Despite her having no morals whatsoever, i want the reader to sympathize with her actions, part of that is being ingenious in the given situation.

little chance for close behind attack with apparatus on enemy

better taser
then cut throat with hook blade or crush larynx with toilet plunger

no noise, no bullet forensics

[Kumabjorn]

@Hitch

Woaw, that was a lot more silent than I expected. Forgive my ignorance, I don't live in a country where firearms are prevalent, is a .25 like 10% bigger than a .22 bullet? Will that transfer to 10% more sound (or more, if I remember my physics class isn't sound something that grows exponentially)?

Yes, you're absolutely right. My protagonist never ever fights (unless someone of similar build) she always kills with a gun, it's her only chance. That is also why she needs to be a real expert on anything firearms related (Something I fear I'm not). Hence the suggestion about a magic bullet is something that has me intrigued. I see a sewing kit with a hidden compartment for some very specialized ammo. What are some things you can creatively do with something like that? For example, can you make the bullet out of something so hard it won't deform if hitting cast iron or bronze?

[crich70]

I think if you want the reader to be sympathetic to her you will need more of a reason than he's her competition in some way. Maybe he was responsible for the murder of a friend or loved one of the woman or he had assaulted her in the past which leads her to start her business in the hopes of eventually getting revenge on him for the act. Plain greed alone won't quite cut it as far as her reason for killing him when a chance presents itself.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Hitch

[...] It's physics; not fair, but F=MA. [...]

No, it's not fair, but F=MA means Force = Mass x Acceleration and your argument only covers mass. Besides which a physical tussle between two individuals is more complicated than that (unless you have one jumping off a wardrobe to land on another). Sure Hollywood exaggerates things for its own ends, but you are simplifying things to the other extreme - which is equally ridiculous. Pick two random individuals and the stronger (not necessarily the heavier) is probably a good bet in a close-in fight, but in a story like this one of the individuals are not random - their attributes are up to the author.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by gmw

No, it's not fair, but F=MA means Force = Mass x Acceleration and your argument only covers mass. Besides which a physical tussle between two individuals is more complicated than that (unless you have one jumping off a wardrobe to land on another). Sure Hollywood exaggerates things for its own ends, but you are simplifying things to the other extreme - which is equally ridiculous. Pick two random individuals and the stronger (not necessarily the heavier) is probably a good bet in a close-in fight, but in a story like this one of the individuals are not random - their attributes are up to the author.

GMW:

As someone of the "weaker" sex who served her country with more-than-fairly good training in hand-to-hand, (not counting other training I may have after my service), I'll stand by my argument. I'm not oversimplifying it. Tell me what your fighting or hand-to-hand combat background is, or sport-fighting, so I can understand your frame of reference, and we can discuss it, which will probably benefit the forum and the writers here. I mean, if you're talking about judo, sure, there's some flexibility there that doesn't exist in a fistfight. But whether it's reach, the strength behind a punch, the delivery, the weight imbalance, etc., the scales of power overcoming good intentions or even good training is heavily tipped toward the male side of the scale.

And I don't care if we want to take gender out of the discussion; in short, a guy Cruise's size can't take on a guy Hemsworth's size, for the same reasons. Hemsworth would pick up Cruise, who, btw, is far smaller than I am, and throw him across the room. It's mass and power and strength. Throw in, boxing-wise, the increased upper-body strength of males over females, no matter how much weight-lifting the female does...well...like I said previously. (It's a bit like watching Michelle Rodriquez "kick ass." I mean, sure, for her size, "tough chick," but whenever I see her hit some big guy, I start laughing aloud, due to how silly it is. More than a bug-bite, sure, but enough to knock a guy the size of your average Federal Marshal out? Nyyyyyyyyyyyah.)

Interesting conversation!! So, GMW, boxing? Judo, another martial art? TKD, Thai Kickboxing? What's your particular brand of poison? Are you still doing it, or...?

Hitch

[Stitchawl]

Kumabjorn, is it necessary that she shoots him? If she wants him dead, and it's a crime of opportunity, why not use the pointed end of her rat-tail hair comb to his temple as he stands at the urinal. As Hitch points out, if the guy gets the chance to fight back, your little heroine is a goner. And a 10 yr old girl can get enough power to stab a metal rat-tail comb through the bone covering the temple, and the man goes down dead where he stands. No noise. Minimal blood spatter on impact. (Lots of blood if she retrieves the comb.)

Stitchawl

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by Hitch

As someone of the "weaker" sex who served her country with more-than-fairly good training in hand-to-hand, (not counting other training I may have after my service), I'll stand by my argument. I'm not oversimplifying it.

I agree. I've had a girlfriend who was European champion Jiu-Jitsu at the time in her weight class. I did some judo at the time, but I was nothing special in that regard. She was far more skilled than I was. But I weighed almost twice as much as she did.

We sparred a few times, and it was no contest. As soon as she came close enough for me to grab and bring her to the ground, it was over. Boom. Headlock or choke hold she could not break. And I could always break her holds if she got me into one. Always.

Size matters.

[VydorScope]

Hitch,

I hold a Black Belt in American Freestyle Karate, I am second yellow in Aikidho, and I have also trained in Sho do khan, and just recently started Kali. I am undefeated in my class in tournament fighting.

I am 180pounds, 5'11" My wife, also black belt and trained in more styles then I have is 5'1" 100 pounds.My 9 year old son is also a black belt, and is training in Aikidho and Kali now with us.

So I have a wide range of sizes to compare. And yes, we fight for fun around my house.

I agree with GMW you are over simplifying it. There are blows that my wife can deliver that will kill an adult man, or disable him. She has a lot less room for error then I do, but I promise you, she can win the fight against a superior sized attacker. Put a weapon in her hand and it just gets better.

The key is that in a real life/death fight - you have seconds at best to win. These Hollywood fights that go on for 16 million hours are total BS. If it comes down to a head on, straight up boxing match, no she does not stand a chance. But if it gets there, she has already lost. A contest of strength she can never win, a contest of timing, speed and skill, she has a chance.

As for this attacker, slashing both jugulars makes a big mess but if you know how to move you can keep the blood off you, and its fast easy and silent. Strength of the attacker/victim will not come in to play, however you will have a problem with reaching, so you may want to consider the femoral instead of the jugular.

A 22 with a silencer would also work well and less chance for error. If I was writing the story, I would go with the 22 and sub sonics + suppressor. Its fast, easy, believable, and realistic. Unless there was some special significance in the way she killed, there is no reason to get fancy, IMO.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Kumabjorn, is it necessary that she shoots him? If she wants him dead, and it's a crime of opportunity, why not use the pointed end of her rat-tail hair comb to his temple as he stands at the urinal. As Hitch points out, if the guy gets the chance to fight back, your little heroine is a goner. And a 10 yr old girl can get enough power to stab a metal rat-tail comb through the bone covering the temple, and the man goes down dead where he stands. No noise. Minimal blood spatter on impact. (Lots of blood if she retrieves the comb.)

Stitchawl

Or if she hits him with a heavy enough object at the base of the skull that would do it. It would cause damage to the medulla (the part of the brain that controls breathing and heart rate) and he'd be out for the count permanently.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by crich70

Or if she hits him with a heavy enough object at the base of the skull that would do it. It would cause damage to the medulla (the part of the brain that controls breathing and heart rate) and he'd be out for the count permanently.

But what might a small woman have with her that would be certain to get the job done. Obviously a sap or blackjack would work, but as this seems to be a crime of opportunity, these might not be things she normally carries. But a comb in a purse? But then, do women still use rat-tailed combs? I really don't know...

Stitchawl

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

But what might a small woman have with her that would be certain to get the job done. Obviously a sap or blackjack would work, but as this seems to be a crime of opportunity, these might not be things she normally carries. But a comb in a purse? But then, do women still use rat-tailed combs? I really don't know...

Stitchawl

Yes, but if she is following him round waiting for an opportunity to strike she might carry a sap or blackjack in her purse. Even a roll of quarters in a stocking or long glove would suffice wouldn't it?

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Hitch

[...] It's mass and power and strength. [...]

You admit it's not just mass. Now throw in speed, agility, training/knowledge, stamina, advantage of the surprise attacker (in the case in point) and you begin to get more of a complete picture. We are not talking about a friendly bout in a ring with someone trying to score the highest number of points, we're talking about one side intent on killing and the other side not even aware the attack is going to happen.

I don't have anything like the experience noted by VydorScope but I can only agree that most serious fights are won or lost in seconds. This goes double (or more) where one is at a significant physical disadvantage. It goes triple for crimes of opportunity - the most important aspect of the scenario described was surprise, which places the advantage strongly with the attacker. (Assuming they are not silly enough to then place themselves in front and challenge for a wrestling match - it would be silly to do that even if the odds were the other way, unless the only thing you wanted was the work-out).

The next thing is the random element. Australia has its share of gym junkies, as I imagine America does, but we also have our share of couch potatoes. There is no guarantee that a random man, even when larger than the woman, will be stronger or more powerful - all they may have going for them is weight (probably), and an attacker will already know (see) this and presumably try to avoid letting that be a deciding factor.

So the attacker comes from behind, the victim has no reason to be suspicious and does not look around. Bang! A hard enough whack to the head with a blunt instrument and then the attacker do pretty much whatever they like. Do it hard enough and they won't have to do anything more, do it not quite hard enough and the advantage has still swayed in the attackers favour with the victim now in pain and badly disoriented.

What do they do it with? Well this is a story and we're told it's a crime of opportunity. Perhaps the opportunity is inspired by seeing a plumber's wrench lying next the toilet?

Except perhaps for reaching high enough, a child could do it. Strength and weight matter in the carefully paced fights of a ring, outside the ring other factors can take precedence.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

I am second yellow in Aikidho, and I have also trained in Sho do khan

hehe...you spell those funny.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by ApK

hehe...you spell those funny.

And probably different every time. I really need to learn those words, but its not something we focus on in the dojo