removing DRM- is this legal? - Page 2

Xanthe · 05-22-2013, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_fishy

I have heard of people removing the DRM from their own purchased books in order to create a backup or to be able to read the book on multiple ereaders.

I want to know if this is even legal. My question is in the context of wanting to have a back up copy for myself or for being able to read a B&N nookbook on a Sony ereader etc.

Personally, I don't care if it is considered legal or not if I'm removing the protection so that I can change the format to allow the book to be read on my device of choice. I've paid for it and it's mine to do with as I please, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm having problems holding things for extended time periods and want to use one of my lighter-weight Sony ereaders, then I'm going to convert things to .epub to load them on there for my convenience.

Barcey · 05-23-2013, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApK

For the record, I find it rather despicable to answer a question about the legality of something with variations of "doesn't matter if it's legal, as long as you don't get caught."

To the OP: While the US has a law with wording that seems to make stripping DRM illegal, the few times that provision has come up in cases, courts have disagreed on whether it would apply in a situation like you describe. This has been discussed here a lot.

Well I'm naive enough to believe that laws should be clear, fair, rational and enforceable. Any law I've seen related to DRM removal are none of the above. In such instances I fall back on a 'no harm no foul' stance and I don't worry about it.

AlexBell · 05-23-2013, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_fishy

I have heard of people removing the DRM from their own purchased books in order to create a backup or to be able to read the book on multiple ereaders.

I want to know if this is even legal. My question is in the context of wanting to have a back up copy for myself or for being able to read a B&N nookbook on a Sony ereader etc.

If you've read down this far you've seen a whole range of answers. Let me step sideways, and ask you to look at two other factors:
- It's not so very long ago that it was perfectly legal to sire a child by a black slave and then sell that child, and it was a very serious criminal offense to teach a slave to read and an even more serious criminal offense to help a slave to escape. Is it possible that legality does not necessarily equate to morality?
- If you remove DRM only for the purpose of back up or to move to a different reader who is hurt by you doing that? And if no one is hurt what is wrong with doing that?

rkomar · 05-23-2013, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexBell

- If you remove DRM only for the purpose of back up or to move to a different reader who is hurt by you doing that? And if no one is hurt what is wrong with doing that?

Some people paid good money to have those laws enacted, and they'll want to see some return on that investment. What is "wrong" is that you are circumventing their costly rent-seeking schemes.

Stitchawl · 05-23-2013, 05:26 AM

As a photographer, my images are protected by copy-write laws. They have been used illegally many times. Unfortunately, in most countries, taking it to court would only net me the loss of income from selling the work as it was being used in the first place, and usually not even cover my legal costs. (That is to say, if a small travel agent used one of my photos on their wall, I'd only be able to get the money that I would normally charge for license to use my image in that way. If it were used by a large international magazine as its cover, I would be entitled to the fee I normally charge for that sort of usage. While the courts in the US often do award damages for theft of intellectual property, many other countries do not. And unfortunately, no large international magazines have stolen any of my images for their covers...

Stitchawl

Apache · 05-23-2013, 06:38 AM

If you sign a contract that is ambiguous, in most jurisdictions, that contract is said to be resolved “against” the party that drafted the contract.
Maybe it is time to use the same principle with poorly written civil laws.
Apache

JoeD · 05-23-2013, 10:45 AM

Only the copyright holder could sue you as others mentioned, it's a civil offence (at least afaik in the UK). However, no copyright holder would be daft enough to sue someone who just strips DRM to read the book on another device or as a backup even if they ever found out about it.

They gain nothing by suing you, unlike suing pirates. You've caused them no damage, you paid for the book, you're not sharing it with anyone who shouldn't have access. At best you're perhaps avoiding buying the book a 2nd time in a kindle rather than nook format, maybe they can claim $5 in damages, but there's no way a case like that would be even remotely worth pursuing and I can only imagine the PR disaster it would cause.

Unlike people who distribute their books, where there is an incentive for holders to go after them even if it costs more to do so and the damages can be way higher.

IANAL, but chances are it is illegal in most countries.If you're truly doing it for personal use imho you'll never have a problem. In time it will likely be a non-issue anyway. I expect more and more publishers to realise they're been scammed into paying per book DRM fees when the DRM is not in anyway reducing the levels of piracy. Either that or laws will hopefully change to make it legal

JoeD · 05-23-2013, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

As a photographer, my images are protected by copy-write laws.

It's going to get worse for you if you do business in the UK. Google the plans for orphaned works laws and consider how easy it is to remove meta data, claim you did a due diligence search and get away with using photographs commercially for free or at worst an industry standard fee.

The concept is good as far as allowing photos to not end up locked away forever to be forgotten about, especially those that are culturally or historically significant, but the way it's proposed just seems wide open for abuse.

calvin-c · 05-23-2013, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crossi

How would the government ever know if all you do is make a de-DRM'd copy of all your books to store as a backup on a hard drive? They are scarcely going to search people's computers and files at random hoping to find a de-DRM'd book somewhere on it. As long as you don't post the book on the internet for others to download you are safe. I also remove matress tags in spite of the dire warnings against it and no arrests yet.

Ah, the old "it's only wrong if I get caught" argument. Fail-big time fail!

calvin-c · 05-23-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Unfortunately, in most countries, taking it to court would only net me the loss of income from selling the work as it was being used in the first place, and usually not even cover my legal costs.

It might be possible to recover your legal costs as well. Situations differ on that, e.g. deliberate vs unknowing infringement.

BeccaPrice · 05-23-2013, 12:07 PM

I suspect it isn't legal, and make no representations whether it's ethically right or not, but I do strip DRM, so I can back up my books. I don't share, but I also don't trust the holders of the files to make my files available to me if I need to download them again. Corporations shift formats, or they die, or are bought and absorbed. I've read too many stories about people losing their books when things like that happen. I do re-read, and I do format-shift, and so I strip the DRM.

Joykins · 05-23-2013, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

I don't recall this every happening with ebooks.

Well, that's true. ebooks are much less mainstream than movies and music. I hope they continue to overlook us, honestly.

pdurrant · 05-23-2013, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joykins

In the US they are highly unlikely to sue you but if they do and are successful, which they have done with perfectly normal people, they can be awarded inordinately large sums of money pour encourager les autres.

No-one has ever been sued for removing DRM from DRM-protected music, movies or ebooks.

People have been sued for distributing copyright music.

Quexos · 05-23-2013, 01:55 PM

To put it in other words "defending your interests" is illegal (at least in some modern and hum hum, democratic countries)

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_fishy

I have heard of people removing the DRM from their own purchased books in order to create a backup or to be able to read the book on multiple ereaders.

I want to know if this is even legal. My question is in the context of wanting to have a back up copy for myself or for being able to read a B&N nookbook on a Sony ereader etc.

If I may interject a remark, people have also been sued for downloading such content. Not just for distributing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

People have been sued for distributing copyright music.

cromag · 05-23-2013, 02:13 PM

I'm a pretty law-abiding guy. I haven't had a traffic ticket since 1976. I've been known to pick up other people's litter. I have corrected cashiers when they've rung up items too low. I don't download ebooks, movies, etc., from pirate sites -- or even just dubious sites. Etc.

I do remove DRM from ebooks that I have legally acquired for my own personal use. And I don't feel too bad about it -- other than being annoyed that I have to take the extra steps before I can read. To that end, I prefer buying from vendors that do not apply DRM, and I generally check.

05-23-2013, 10:45 AM	#22
JoeD Guru Posts: 895 Karma: 4383958 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: na	Only the copyright holder could sue you as others mentioned, it's a civil offence (at least afaik in the UK). However, no copyright holder would be daft enough to sue someone who just strips DRM to read the book on another device or as a backup even if they ever found out about it. They gain nothing by suing you, unlike suing pirates. You've caused them no damage, you paid for the book, you're not sharing it with anyone who shouldn't have access. At best you're perhaps avoiding buying the book a 2nd time in a kindle rather than nook format, maybe they can claim $5 in damages, but there's no way a case like that would be even remotely worth pursuing and I can only imagine the PR disaster it would cause. Unlike people who distribute their books, where there is an incentive for holders to go after them even if it costs more to do so and the damages can be way higher. IANAL, but chances are it is illegal in most countries.If you're truly doing it for personal use imho you'll never have a problem. In time it will likely be a non-issue anyway. I expect more and more publishers to realise they're been scammed into paying per book DRM fees when the DRM is not in anyway reducing the levels of piracy. Either that or laws will hopefully change to make it legal Last edited by JoeD; 05-23-2013 at 10:51 AM.

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05-23-2013, 05:26 AM	#20
Stitchawl Opsimath Posts: 12,344 Karma: 187123287 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chiang Mai, Northern Thailand Device: Sony PRS-650, iPhone 5, Kobo Glo, Sony PRS-350, iPad, Samsung Galaxy	As a photographer, my images are protected by copy-write laws. They have been used illegally many times. Unfortunately, in most countries, taking it to court would only net me the loss of income from selling the work as it was being used in the first place, and usually not even cover my legal costs. (That is to say, if a small travel agent used one of my photos on their wall, I'd only be able to get the money that I would normally charge for license to use my image in that way. If it were used by a large international magazine as its cover, I would be entitled to the fee I normally charge for that sort of usage. While the courts in the US often do award damages for theft of intellectual property, many other countries do not. And unfortunately, no large international magazines have stolen any of my images for their covers... Stitchawl

05-23-2013, 06:38 AM	#21
Apache Readaholic Posts: 5,277 Karma: 90000484 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: South Georgia Device: Surface Pro 6 / Galaxy Tab A 8"	If you sign a contract that is ambiguous, in most jurisdictions, that contract is said to be resolved “against” the party that drafted the contract. Maybe it is time to use the same principle with poorly written civil laws. Apache

05-23-2013, 12:07 PM	#26
BeccaPrice Wizard Posts: 2,146 Karma: 11174187 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: Sony 350, K3-3G, K4SO, KPW	I suspect it isn't legal, and make no representations whether it's ethically right or not, but I do strip DRM, so I can back up my books. I don't share, but I also don't trust the holders of the files to make my files available to me if I need to download them again. Corporations shift formats, or they die, or are bought and absorbed. I've read too many stories about people losing their books when things like that happen. I do re-read, and I do format-shift, and so I strip the DRM.

05-23-2013, 02:13 PM	#30
cromag Surfin the alpha waves ~~ Posts: 26,301 Karma: 459765791 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New Jersey Device: Jetbook Lite & Mini, Nook STR, Kobo, Hanvon N516, Kindle 2, Androids	I'm a pretty law-abiding guy. I haven't had a traffic ticket since 1976. I've been known to pick up other people's litter. I have corrected cashiers when they've rung up items too low. I don't download ebooks, movies, etc., from pirate sites -- or even just dubious sites. Etc. I do remove DRM from ebooks that I have legally acquired for my own personal use. And I don't feel too bad about it -- other than being annoyed that I have to take the extra steps before I can read. To that end, I prefer buying from vendors that do not apply DRM, and I generally check.