MobileRead May 2013 Discussion: The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler (spoilers)

[WT Sharpe]

The time has come to discuss the fascinating May 2013 MobileRead Book Club selection, The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler. What did you think?

[Asawi]

Well, to tell the truth I didn't finish the book. About halfway inot it I realized I didn't care about the people involved and/or the outcome and I had other things I wanted to do instead of reading.
That being said, I did enjoy the 100 or so pages I did read. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the writing. I did not expect that at all! I'm pretty sure I read this book way back when I was a teenager, and back then the detective part (that had me yawning this time) was what pulled me in. I doubt I cared much about language or writing style back then, so it was really eye opening to reread the part that I did read!
I've always thought of the Philip Marlow books as "hard boiled", but comparing to today's crime books it felt very "benign". Which is nice!
I may come back to it when I'm in better mode for it, because the writing really appealed to me!

[desertblues]

I must admit that I was in two minds about this book,but there is more in it than meets the eye.

It isn't the easiest book to read, not in the least through the language Chandler uses. The artificial constructed sentences describe the atmosphere, appearances and emotions. In fact, somewhat like a story board, for a film. In all honesty: this irritated me severely. But on the other hand, Chandlers writing style forced me to a closer, a slower paced reading, which had the effect of drawing me into the story, obviously.

Spoiler:

'She gave me one of those smiles the lips have forgotten before they reach the eyes'(page 50)

'an old and obviously dying man watched us come with black eyes from which all fire had died long ago, but which still had the coal-black directness of the eyes in the portrait that hung above the mantel in the hail. The rest of his face was a leaden mask, with the bloodless lips and the sharp nose and the sunken temples and the outward-turning earlobes of approaching dissolution. His long narrow body was wrapped—in that heat—in a traveling rug and a faded red bathrobe. His thin claw-like hands were folded loosely on the rug, purple-nailed. A few locks of dry white hair clung to his scalp, like wild flowers fighting for life on a bare rock.'(page 9)

'She tried to keep a cute little smile on her face but her face was too tired to be bothered. It kept going blank on her. The smile would wash off like water off sand'(page 53)

'I went back to the office and sat in my swivel chair and tried to catch up on my foot-dangling'(page 98)

'hard high October moon that lost itself in the top layers of a beach fog.'(page 100)

On the surface the theme of the book is the ancient battle between good and evil. The good represented by the cynical detective Philip Marlowe, who seems to be the only person with morals and values in a corrupt world. It turns this though man into a Don Quichote; fighting the windmills. Or so it seems.
The evil is in the family of General Sternwood, in Carmen, the younger daughter, who does nasty things. She gets this compulsion when she is thwarted. And she gets away with it.

Spoiler:

'she showed me all her sharp little teeth and brought the gun up and started to hiss.
I stopped dead, the sump water stagnant and stinking at my back. 'Stand there, you son of a bitch,” she said. The gun pointed at my chest. Her hand seemed to be quite steady. The hissing sound grew louder and her face had the scraped bone look. Aged, deteriorated, become animal, and not a nice animal.
I laughed at her. I started to walk towards her. I saw her small finger tighten on the trigger and grow white at the tip. I was about six feet away from her when she started to shoot.'(page 166/7).

Her sister Vivian, who should have known better, covers for her as if she is an irresponsible child. It might be that Carmen has a disorder, but she literal gets away with murder.

Spoiler:

"'So you let her run around loose,” I said, “getting into other jams.”
“I was playing for time. Just for time. I played the wrong way, of course. I thought she might even forget it herself. I’ve heard they do forget what happens in those fits. Maybe she has forgotten it' (page 173).

On second thought, the theme of the book isn't between good and evil, but between evil and less evil. For in the end, the hero of the story becomes part of the corrupt society 'the great nastiness' himself.

Spoiler:

'What did it matter where you lay once you were dead? In a dirty sump or in a marble tower on top of a high hill? You were dead, you were sleeping the big sleep, you were not bothered by things like that. Oil and water were the same as wind and air to you. You just slept the big sleep, not caring about the nastiness of how you died or where you fell. Me, I was part of the nastiness now'(174)

[crich70]

I think Marlowe was always part of the great nastyness desertblues, he is just admitting it to himself and the reader. He's basically saying that in the end who you were, and what you did doesn't matter to the world. You were here, and now you're gone. He's a bit of a pessimist I think.

[Bookpossum]

I quite enjoyed revisiting Raymond Chandler after a few decades (though not as many as for Sherlock Holmes!).

I had forgotten the homophobia in the book, which was no doubt just a reflection of the way things were - and no doubt still are, but it wouldn't be as acceptable to write it that way now.

He certainly portrayed a nasty and corrupt society very well. And even though Marlowe was honest and decent, he felt contaminated by the evil. And of course he gave Vivian the chance to get Carmen away somewhere else, where she should have been locked up as criminally insane.

For me, the feeling at the end was one of melancholy.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by desertblues

...The evil is in the family of General Sternwood, in Carmen, the younger daughter, who does nasty things. She gets this compulsion when she is thwarted. And she gets away with it....

Carmen is surely the embodiment of the Sternwoods at their worst, but even at their best the entire family is, as the general pointed out, amoral.

Vivian is spoiled, exacting, smart and quite ruthless. Carmen is a child who likes to pull wings off flies. Neither of them has any more moral sense than a cat. Neither have I. No Sternwood ever had.

[WT Sharpe]

Drinking and driving seemed to be no big deal in those days.

I parked, aired out the convertible, had a drink from my bottle, and sat.

[WT Sharpe]

Is there some special meaning that connects this passage to the rest of the story? Some symbolism in Marlow's dream that relates to the the other crimes? If so, I'm missing it.

I went to bed full of whiskey and frustration and dreamed about a man in a bloody Chinese coat who chased a naked girl with long jade earrings while I ran after them and tried to take a photograph with an empty camera.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by desertblues

...

Spoiler:

'She gave me one of those smiles the lips have forgotten before they reach the eyes'(page 50)...

...'She tried to keep a cute little smile on her face but her face was too tired to be bothered. It kept going blank on her. The smile would wash off like water off sand'(page 53)....

....

Chandler seems to have a special knack for describing false smiles.

There was an overtone of strain in her smile. It wasn’t a smile at all. It was a grimace. She just thought it was a smile.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

...I had forgotten the homophobia in the book, which was no doubt just a reflection of the way things were - and no doubt still are, but it wouldn't be as acceptable to write it that way now....

It certainly wasn't my favorite part of the book, but like you indicated it was a reflection of the times.

[Dazrin]

I hadn't read anything from Chandler before but I really enjoyed this. It may be the first book that I have read that dealt with life in the 30's in general, so it was enlightening to me in that respect too.

Note: I read the second book, Farewell, My Lovely, right after finishing this one, so I have muddled some of the details between books. I will try not to post any spoilers below for the second book.

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

I had forgotten the homophobia in the book, which was no doubt just a reflection of the way things were - and no doubt still are, but it wouldn't be as acceptable to write it that way now.

I didn't notice that nearly as much as the racism in the book. I should clarify, I noticed it, but it didn't bother me too much because I expect it from someone in this time period. Homophobia is still very present and we all know it was much worse even a few years ago, so it didn't bother me in that regard. The overt racism in this book and even more in the second book is what really got my attention. Homophobia is still something that we are actively dealing with as a society, we tend to think of race as a more-or-less resolved issue.* There is no way a book like this would be well received in today's society, let alone made into a movie a couple years later. (I say that then think of Django Unchained or whatever that movie was.) It really gave me a different perspective on racism in the early 1900s, especially since this is set in LA. Los Angeles, not Louisiana which would have surprised me less!

I see some of the roots of today's action oriented books in these books. The tough protagonist who has a dark sense of humor and/or is only marginally a good-guy. I do see him as a clear good guy, but one who has been let down by the system. The picture he gives us is no longer a nice glossy image, it is like a picture on the wall of a smoking lounge that is yellowed, faded and smells a bit but still has value to the people in it.

This book was a big departure for me from what I normally read, which is part of the draw and part of the reason I got the Kindle in the first place, but I enjoyed it enough to continue on in the series.

*I am quite aware of how much it is around still, but it doesn't tend to get the same attention anymore.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Is there some special meaning that connects this passage to the rest of the story? Some symbolism in Marlow's dream that relates to the the other crimes? If so, I'm missing it.

I think Chandler was trying to portray how elements of waking life can become jumbled in our dreams.

I went to bed full of whiskey and frustration and dreamed about a man in a bloody Chinese coat who chased a naked girl with long jade earrings while I ran after them and tried to take a photograph with an empty camera.

Spoiler:

The girl would be Carmen, the man would be Geiger, and the camera relates to how he finds her nude and out of it in Geiger's apt. where she has been having her picture taken.

[Greg Anos]

That's one of the problems of older books. Context. I notice nobody commenting on the pornography lending library. It's now so mainstream that it's not worthy of comment...

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

That's one of the problems of older books. Context. I notice nobody commenting on the pornography lending library. It's now so mainstream that it's not worthy of comment...

True enough. In some of the old Dragnet TV episodes (as well as OTR episodes) Sgt. Friday and his partner go after pornographers. One time a man sent a poem with some erotic content through the mail and got pinched for it (a true story). The poem in question was from The Song of Songs which is Solomon's. In the old days when people made 'stag movies' the actors often wore masks on their faces to hide their identity.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by crich70

I think Chandler was trying to portray how elements of waking life can become jumbled in our dreams.

Spoiler:

The girl would be Carmen, the man would be Geiger, and the camera relates to how he finds her nude and out of it in Geiger's apt. where she has been having her picture taken.

I guess you're right. I forgot about (or didn't catch) Carmen's jade earrings being at one point her only attire.