any opinions on the effectiveness of KDP Select?

[teh603]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

That's like saying "I don't like the steak sauce, so I'm going to stick with dog food!"

Mobi is a functional ebook format that does everything Amazon needs. epub2 does the same for a lot of other sources. epub3 is overburdened with useless junk so badly that very few modern readers and a lot of tablets can't actually handle it.

To correct the food analogy, rejecting epub3 for a proven format is like choosing a meal you can actually prepare and eat, instead of one that might not ever be humanly possible.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by teh603

If you'd seen the specs for epub3, you'd be sticking to MOBI too.

You don't need to make ePub3 eBooks. You can do ePub 2 just fine. And very easy in fact. ePub makes a very good source for making KF8/Mobi eBooks. Most KF8 I've seen (the code) originally was an ePub and then Kindlegenged to KF8/Mobi.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by teh603

To correct the food analogy, rejecting epub3 for a proven format is like choosing a meal you can actually prepare and eat, instead of one that might not ever be humanly possible.

So ignore ePub3 and just make ePub2. No problem there.

To use the food analogy, it's like going to The 99 Restaurant and ordering their steak tips. You can get then mothered with peppers, onions, and mushrooms and not. You might find the smothering overkill (ePub3) so don't get them smothered (ePub2).

ePub2 is a proven format. ePub3 is a mess.

[MichaelJScott]

I've done KDP twice. The first time, I worked with a publicist. The second time, I tried it on my own. I definitely had a better experience working with the publicist, and saw my books downloaded several thousand times both during the KDP run as well as after, earning a lot more than I would have otherwise. When I tried it on my own, marketing everywhere I could think to place it, I scored hundreds of downloads, not the thousands I'd experienced before.

I'm ambivalent about it. I recently republished my books via Smashwords, and I think I lost sales that I might otherwise have made through that site due to the prolonged period KDP requires. Three months is a heavy commitment, and even though they keep funding it, I'm wondering if it hasn't run its course already.

[BeccaPrice]

on a tangent (should this be a separate thread?) how does one find a publicist, how much do they cost, and how do you measure whether it was worth it?

[BeccaPrice]

oops, wrong thread

[BeccaPrice]

I've tried two writer's groups. One of them just said "wow, that's great" to my stories. the other wanted to re-write my stories to the story they wanted to tell, to change the entire tone and point of what I was trying to do. I didn't feel like I got good feedback from either group.

Where does one find a good group that will give appropriate feedback? How does one get marketing advice when no one in the writing group has published yet?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

I've tried two writer's groups. One of them just said "wow, that's great" to my stories. the other wanted to re-write my stories to the story they wanted to tell, to change the entire tone and point of what I was trying to do. I didn't feel like I got good feedback from either group.

Where does one find a good group that will give appropriate feedback? How does one get marketing advice when no one in the writing group has published yet?

Finding a writer's group is not like going to a fast-food joint and getting something that you've reliably ordered often. It's more like dating or a marriage; you may have to try quite a few to get what you want. Yes, many groups are full of useless people who say "oh, that's great" and give you no useful feedback. Most internet groups are like this, full of vapidity and people who say it just to get the same from you. I find that very few writers like the "tougher" kind, which do provide a lot of somewhat negative feedback. I have also found that many writers feel that--as you did--when they get a lot of feedback, that the feedback is trying to "change" what they've written, or alter their voice, the tone, etc.

It would probably be helpful for you, if you have not already, to take a professionally-run CW class, in whatever area you feel you want "real" feedback, whether it's plotting, character development or basic creative writing. Once you've had professional feedback, along with critiques from your classmates, it will give you a better feel as to what you really do need. There's one guy at Writer's Digest that runs a very good CW class; his name is John DeChancie. I can't speak to the others.

With regard to marketing, you won't get any good advice from those who haven't published yet. What you will get is a lot of "wishful thinking" advice; people who think that this or that or maybe whoosie-whatsits worked. But much is dependent upon your genre; your individual book; what you can and cannot do (do you have a platform? Do you tweet? Do you have a blog or not?). Book publicists that are actually worthwhile aren't cheap, and most aren't worthwhile, to be honest.

As with all things "marketing" the thing to remember is that if marketers wanted to be measured on metrics, they'd call themselves "salespeople." They don't, and they don't. You'll hear a lot of BS about "long tail" and the like, with "book marketers" telling you that you'll see results in 6-9-12 months, and the like. In short, this means that they never really have to deliver a specific set of results.

I don't mean to disparage the whole profession; but it's basically a brand-new profession for those who don't have thousands to spend, and that means that like all "gold rushes," a ton of worthless people have leaped into it, who have no idea what they are doing. Only interview those who can provide happy clients who will talk to you independently and verify that they achieved measurable success with them.

Lastly (yes, I know, this is all dreadfully discouraging), you need to recognize that despite what everyone tells you, about how this isn't some 'zero-sum' game, most successful authors don't see it that way. Most won't share their secrets, or the name of their cover designers, or what posting strategies they are using. Or their publicists' names. And for the nine bajillion people who will jump on me for saying it, trust me, it's true. I get told all the time not to tell anyone else what cover designer so-and-so used, or what social media tools they're using, or what sites they're buying ads for their freebies on, so...just sayin'. Expecting that other, already-published successful authors are going to share their marking strategy with you is a bit like expecting Ford, GM, etc., to get together and say, "gosh, how can we all make our competitor's cars sell better?" Publishing is a business, and every publisher--whether it's one book or 1,000 books--is in competition with every other publisher. The ones who do share their strategies, make money by doing it (like Locke), and neglect to mention what they really did to drive the sales (like paying for reviews). I know it sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. (I'm sure I'll catch crap for saying all this, but, so be it.)

Hitch

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by MichaelJScott

I've done KDP twice. The first time, I worked with a publicist. The second time, I tried it on my own. I definitely had a better experience working with the publicist, and saw my books downloaded several thousand times both during the KDP run as well as after, earning a lot more than I would have otherwise. When I tried it on my own, marketing everywhere I could think to place it, I scored hundreds of downloads, not the thousands I'd experienced before.

I'm ambivalent about it. I recently republished my books via Smashwords, and I think I lost sales that I might otherwise have made through that site due to the prolonged period KDP requires. Three months is a heavy commitment, and even though they keep funding it, I'm wondering if it hasn't run its course already.

That's what I've been hearing a lot lately: KDP Select ain't what it used to be. What I'm guessing is,though, that for somebody totally new like me, it'll be better than nothing. I appreciate you getting back to me.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

I've tried two writer's groups. One of them just said "wow, that's great" to my stories. the other wanted to re-write my stories to the story they wanted to tell, to change the entire tone and point of what I was trying to do. I didn't feel like I got good feedback from either group.

Becca, it's trial and error. You just gotta keep trying groups till you find a good one. And you are RIGHT in that there are some writers groups with controlling people who will want to re-write your stories. That or they will give you flippant advice like, "Maybe you should just re-write the whole thing from another character's point of view."

My experience with writer's groups is like yours. The great majority of them are lame. And there's the few that are categorically DANGEROUS (to your self-esteem, confidence and judgment).

What I look for in a group is people who know more about grammar, point of view violations, technical stuff like that. Plus people that are knowledgeable about what makes for good publishable writing.

[BeccaPrice]

I can take negative feedback - I'm a professional technical writer, and I get that kind of suggestion/criticism all the time.

What happened in one group I attended is this. I write fairy stories. And I got criticized for one of the stories I presented, because it was too mythic - and that was the whole point of the exercise. Mythic may not *sell* and that's a whole nother issue, but the suggestions were to rewrite to get rid of the mythic tone.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Finding a writer's group is not like going to a fast-food joint and getting something that you've reliably ordered often. It's more like dating or a marriage; you may have to try quite a few to get what you want. Yes, many groups are full of useless people who say "oh, that's great" and give you no useful feedback. Most internet groups are like this, full of vapidity and people who say it just to get the same from you. I find that very few writers like the "tougher" kind, which do provide a lot of somewhat negative feedback. I have also found that many writers feel that--as you did--when they get a lot of feedback, that the feedback is trying to "change" what they've written, or alter their voice, the tone, etc.

It would probably be helpful for you, if you have not already, to take a professionally-run CW class, in whatever area you feel you want "real" feedback, whether it's plotting, character development or basic creative writing. Once you've had professional feedback, along with critiques from your classmates, it will give you a better feel as to what you really do need. There's one guy at Writer's Digest that runs a very good CW class; his name is John DeChancie. I can't speak to the others.

With regard to marketing, you won't get any good advice from those who haven't published yet. What you will get is a lot of "wishful thinking" advice; people who think that this or that or maybe whoosie-whatsits worked. But much is dependent upon your genre; your individual book; what you can and cannot do (do you have a platform? Do you tweet? Do you have a blog or not?). Book publicists that are actually worthwhile aren't cheap, and most aren't worthwhile, to be honest.

As with all things "marketing" the thing to remember is that if marketers wanted to be measured on metrics, they'd call themselves "salespeople." They don't, and they don't. You'll hear a lot of BS about "long tail" and the like, with "book marketers" telling you that you'll see results in 6-9-12 months, and the like. In short, this means that they never really have to deliver a specific set of results.

I don't mean to disparage the whole profession; but it's basically a brand-new profession for those who don't have thousands to spend, and that means that like all "gold rushes," a ton of worthless people have leaped into it, who have no idea what they are doing. Only interview those who can provide happy clients who will talk to you independently and verify that they achieved measurable success with them.

Lastly (yes, I know, this is all dreadfully discouraging), you need to recognize that despite what everyone tells you, about how this isn't some 'zero-sum' game, most successful authors don't see it that way. Most won't share their secrets, or the name of their cover designers, or what posting strategies they are using. Or their publicists' names. And for the nine bajillion people who will jump on me for saying it, trust me, it's true. I get told all the time not to tell anyone else what cover designer so-and-so used, or what social media tools they're using, or what sites they're buying ads for their freebies on, so...just sayin'. Expecting that other, already-published successful authors are going to share their marking strategy with you is a bit like expecting Ford, GM, etc., to get together and say, "gosh, how can we all make our competitor's cars sell better?" Publishing is a business, and every publisher--whether it's one book or 1,000 books--is in competition with every other publisher. The ones who do share their strategies, make money by doing it (like Locke), and neglect to mention what they really did to drive the sales (like paying for reviews). I know it sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. (I'm sure I'll catch crap for saying all this, but, so be it.)

Hitch

You really DO help people. And it IS appreciated by the countless people you help. People like me! Thanks Hitch!

[VydorScope]

So, my experience has been nothing like Hitch describes. I am not saying he is wrong, his experience is just as valid as mine. I can post likes to dozens of posts by successful authors on who does their cover art. I have read blogs from successful authors describing how they succeeded. I am currently following a thread on another forum where authors are posting where they advertise and what success/failure they have had at each place. Most of my advice that I give out here has come from reading and talking with successful authors.

So, based the people I have talked with, I have found authors to be far more open and helpful them most other professions.

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

I am currently following a thread on another forum where authors are posting where they advertise and what success/failure they have had at each place. .

would you care to share what forum this is?

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

would you care to share what forum this is?

I will PM you.