Screwed by Tor again...

[Taylor514ce]

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

@ Taylor:

I don't think that you have anything to regret. Was simply poking fun at you/pointing out how thorny an issue it is to write passionately in places like these.

Oh, gotcha. They aren't quite as practiced in the subtle art of passive emotifaction. I should have, ummm, factored that in.

[Taylor514ce]

Thanks, Barcey, for the link to Chris Meadow's teleread blog on the whole situation. I think he's misread my intentions in re: "recant / decant". For the record, the only thing I'd do any differently, is to read the prior comments on the Tor thread more carefully. I had missed DMcCunney's first question and PNH's reply. Everything else, I stand by, particularly after reading PNH's off-base psuedo-reply.

I also think he's done a poor job of analyzing my social graces and communicative abilities, but then, he's working from a pretty small sample. Not statistically valid. He should read some Harv and Vera stories before making any final judgments.

:emotifaction:

EDIT: Plus he only read through page 3. Doesn't he know that the really good stuff around here doesn't happen until at least page 4?

[mbagsh55]

Hi Taylor,
A quick response just to say that I better understand your feelings now. I deliberately didn't read the threads on the Tor site, since I visited the site three times shortly after the end of the free book promotion and found it to be a waste of my time - similar to the way you describe a television show that ends with "come back for part 2".

I completely agree that the purpose of the promotion seems confused, and consider the response from Tor unacceptable. I work in customer support and understand the frustrations at dealing with customer complaints but if as a company Tor support the viewpoint of Torie Atkinson then they are I am afraid foolish and will lose both the loyalty and money from customers.

I hope that Tor do understand that this is a PR mistake and even if they do not publically admit any wrongdoing review both this and future ebook campaigns and the training of their support staff.

My earlier response was that I was personally delighted with the ebook giveaway. I am still pleased with many of the books, but in honesty seeing the treatment of a fellow reader on their website has tainted this and I feel no further need to try and defend them on this forum or elsewhere.

Regards,
~Marcus

[Barcey]

Well I read through the thread and all I can say is they obviously had a couple of line items missing from the project plan for deploying the www.tor.com site.
- Moderator training
- Customer relations training

Anyone who's had 5 minutes of customer service training would cringe reading that. PNH has lived a very sheltered life to consider that abuse. I guess they've never been offered been offered free tickets while on vacation only to find out that you've got to sit through a time share presentation. If they had I think they could get over the "ice cream" thing and understand what was being said.

Years ago I remember watching a series of customer service training videos that John Cleese did. They were hilarious I wish I could find them on YouTube or something. Let's just say that thread could have been a script for the "What not to do".

pablodefendini was the one exception so hopefully he can take away everyones keyboards until they've had some customer service training.

I was glad to read they do intend to release e-books through BAEN but I'm puzzled by the "technical obstacles" to doing this. It seems that others have been able to over come them. I'll try to stay positive and hope for the best.

[Xenophon]

Being the geeky types that we are, when we hear "technical obstacles" we think computers and networks and hardware and stuff.

My experience around the corporate world suggests, however, that "technical obstacles" could equally well mean "We've agreed in principle, now it's held up while the lawyers (on both sides!) generate lots and lots of billable hours making sure that the contract says the same thing we just agreed on in principle."

Given the timeframe they seem to be talking about, I'd bet on the second translation rather than the first.

Xenophon

[slayda]

Taylor, I don't think the people at Tor like us at MR very well. I just finished reading through their stuff and was not impressed. One "natural" misunderstanding I had was the relation between Tor.com and Tor publishing. I'm more accustomed to Baen Publishing and Baen.com. If I want to buy a ebook published by Baen Publishing, I go to Baen.com. I therefore had foolishly assumed that if I wanted to buy an ebook published by Tor Publishing that I could do so at Tor.com. "Silly" me.

There answer to Nate was also not good. It is true that companies give away "advertising" samples that are different from what the make, but again there was confusion between Tor.com & Tor Publishing. The samples that are generally used as "advertising" samples are "usually" not samples produced by that company and also are usually less costly. Ebooks usually cost at least $5 where advertising giveaways more often cost closet to 5 cents. Also you usually only get one of the 5 cent samples. They gave us several ebooks.

I took exception to their statements that there are several ebooks for the Kindle. Kindle books are almost not really ebooks because you can not even buy one unless you own a Kindle. At the most, Kindle books are very restrictive examples of ebooks. (And you Kindle people, please don't get offended by this. I am in no way trying to put down the Kindle, just pointing out that no one, even on a Windows computer, can even read a Kindle book without a Kindle. So Kindle books do not equate to ebooks or said another way, while Kindle books are ebooks, the reverse does not hold i.e. ebooks are not necessarily Kindle books.)


And for the MR moderators - Thank you so much for the MR environment. It is so much better than the Tor.com environment.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by jpchan

Or to put it this way:

"Hi here is a free sample of crack. Come to the corner or 3rd and main look for the guy in the gray overcoat."

At the corner of 3rd and main.
Guy in the gray overcoat: " oh you got that free sample of crack? Well I'm not selling any; lets talk about these Amway products I'm selling"

I guess that really sums the whole sorry episode up....

Hook you up to a new concept, and then leave you on the bank high and dry....

As a supplier, presumably one who wants to remain in business, the idea of customer satisfaction seems to have gone on a long holiday...

Bye bye TOR, was nice whilst it lasted...

[HappyMartin]

So lots of people got very annoyed over this free offer. I feel sort of relieved really. have not read any more of the free books after finding out there were no e book follow ups.

I find the entire thing difficult to understand. Most of us reading electronic books have made a substantial investment in a reader and have done so because we have decided that we prefer to read in that fashion. Obviously when you offer a book in electronic form to hook people they assume you are hooking them for more of the same.

I was angry, then bewildered and now I am amused at this hugely misguided marketing effort. Tor's rude remarks when questioned about this are at least understandable. Most people get angry when they screw up and it is the pointed out to them in a public forum.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

So lots of people got very annoyed over this free offer. I feel sort of relieved really. have not read any more of the free books after finding out there were no e book follow ups.

I find the entire thing difficult to understand. Most of us reading electronic books have made a substantial investment in a reader and have done so because we have decided that we prefer to read in that fashion. Obviously when you offer a book in electronic form to hook people they assume you are hooking them for more of the same.

I was angry, then bewildered and now I am amused at this hugely misguided marketing effort. Tor's rude remarks when questioned about this are at least understandable. Most people get angry when they screw up and it is the pointed out to them in a public forum.

You mean they never saw it coming....

[TheLongshot]

Well, after following this thread and actually reading the TOR thread, it all ends up being much ado about nothing, really. Someone makes an inflammatory post on a public forum and someone involved tries to explain the situation but doesn't get much headway. Editor guy then comes in and gets a bit snarky, which probably wasn't the smartest move in the world by him, but I can understand it when he posted the answer near the top of the thread.

In my experience, it is never a smart thing to come in with both fists blazing. As a former CSR and one who has dealt with CSRs, people are more likely to be helpful if you calmly explain your issue. I only get angry when people start dropping the ball.

The worst thing is trying to deal with issues you have no control over and there is no way to satisfy the customer. To be honest, there was no way that the TOR web site people were going to satisfy Taylor514ce. No matter how much he complains about the lack of books for sale, they weren't going to go on sale any faster with that rant.

While I can understand that the long promotion got some people's hopes up (including myself) that E-Books would be offered once the new site was launched, TOR never promised that. In fact, the site is exactly what they described it as. Personally, I have little interest in it, but I appreciated the freebies along the way.

I'm not going to get bent out of shape from the lack of availability of E-Books from TOR, because I have plenty to keep me busy for a long time, but p-books and e-books.

Jason

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by TheLongshot

Well, after following this thread and actually reading the TOR thread, it all ends up being much ado about nothing, really. Someone makes an inflammatory post on a public forum and someone involved tries to explain the situation but doesn't get much headway. Editor guy then comes in and gets a bit snarky, which probably wasn't the smartest move in the world by him, but I can understand it when he posted the answer near the top of the thread.

In my experience, it is never a smart thing to come in with both fists blazing. As a former CSR and one who has dealt with CSRs, people are more likely to be helpful if you calmly explain your issue. I only get angry when people start dropping the ball.

The worst thing is trying to deal with issues you have no control over and there is no way to satisfy the customer. To be honest, there was no way that the TOR web site people were going to satisfy Taylor514ce. No matter how much he complains about the lack of books for sale, they weren't going to go on sale any faster with that rant.

While I can understand that the long promotion got some people's hopes up (including myself) that E-Books would be offered once the new site was launched, TOR never promised that. In fact, the site is exactly what they described it as. Personally, I have little interest in it, but I appreciated the freebies along the way.

I'm not going to get bent out of shape from the lack of availability of E-Books from TOR, because I have plenty to keep me busy for a long time, but p-books and e-books.

Jason

The whole exercise was, then, one of duplicitous representation. By the giving of the freebies in the form of ebooks, it implied that ebooks would continue to be offered thereafter - but at a price (fair does)...

I believe Taylor514ce made valid points in his arguments ... and spoke for many of us who were drawn in by the offer....

[Darqref]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

The whole exercise was, then, one of duplicitous representation. By the giving of the freebies in the form of ebooks, it implied that ebooks would continue to be offered thereafter - but at a price (fair does)...

I believe Taylor514ce made valid points in his arguments ... and spoke for many of us who were drawn in by the offer....

Actually, I can think of a different way they may have screwed up. Remember this whole ebook-advertising-giveaway started back last winter. At the time they started, the *technical* people involved with setting up the Tor.com website may have thought they were *going* to have the Baen deal set up by the time the promotion ended. Then, they too might have been surprised by the delay on the legal side of things.

Myself, I've been sampling most of the Tor samples. A couple of them were for books or authors that I've already read in paper or through other sources. I'm finding that most of the rest are books that I wouldn't have picked up at the store. It's good to give them away to me in ebook form, because they'll sit on my drive for effectively forever, and I may try them again someday (that wouldn't happen with a paper copy, since it would eventually go out the door if I haven't read it.) And there are still a couple I haven't gotten to.

But ya know... there are Baen authors I don't like too. And the fact they're included in a webscription month doesn't make me skip that month, because there are usually others that I do want to read, or at least try. And they might get better with practice (or editorial suggestions....)

[grimo1re]

Originally Posted by Darqref

Actually, I can think of a different way they may have screwed up. Remember this whole ebook-advertising-giveaway started back last winter. At the time they started, the *technical* people involved with setting up the Tor.com website may have thought they were *going* to have the Baen deal set up by the time the promotion ended. Then, they too might have been surprised by the delay on the legal side of things.

Yeah, but if they'd sent an e-mail to me at the end of the promotion saying that things got pushed back a bit with an option to let me subscribe to a mailing list that would inform me when the series/books/authors I'm interested in are available as ebooks, they'd have gotten a lot more marketing momentum out of the exercise. I think.

Instant Edit: Basically, I am happy with the free samples, and have enjoyed several of them tremendously. As a marketing effort I think it was pretty poor.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Starting my TOR authors boycott as of today. Should be easy ... since Mr. Pratchett is available at Amazon (and please ... don't anyone tell me that he is actually a TOR author ... I don't want you guys to spoil my boycott).

So there to TOR.

You are okay on that score - however Tor produce the Sword of Truth series; and I'm still waiting to get Confessor....

[acidzebra]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

I also get mad when a great show ends with "see Part Two next week". I just spent an entire hour watching a "free" show (spent vs. free, get it?) expecting it to wrap up, and it ends NOW?

I can't tell if you are serious here. Are you serious?

This thread and the two on Tor left me feeling I stumbled into some surreal netherworld of ebook discussions.