Screwed by Tor again...

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

You'll get nothing and like it!

Actually, Flight Commander Pshrynk, it's worse that that. They've gone to effort and expense to build and advertise their new website. Then they start mocking some of the people that show up. Great way to build up their server traffic....

[RickyMaveety]

Well, I just finished my one (and probably only) post at TOR ever.

There are much more enjoyable places where I can be called "silly" ... and be called it for actually saying (or virtually doing) something that is actually silly.

Taylor, your complaint is completely valid, and I don't think they had any right to diss you for it.

Starting my TOR authors boycott as of today. Should be easy ... since Mr. Pratchett is available at Amazon (and please ... don't anyone tell me that he is actually a TOR author ... I don't want you guys to spoil my boycott).

So there to TOR.

[tlrowley]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

She's not really customer support. But she is a public face of TOR. And frankly, she does not know how to be a forum moderator.

Sorry, my mistake. But, I think my comments are valid for any public face of Tor (or any company for that matter.)

[Taylor514ce]

The problem isn't the authors. The authors are the good guys. I like the authors. I have to believe that the authors want me to read their books.

I want to enter into the "standard contract" with the authors, which is basically:

1. You: write good books
2. Me: read and enjoy your books, and pay you the compliment of caring about your characters and substituting, albeit briefly, the fictional reality you've lovingly crafted for my own.

The publisher, in this instance, has chosen to stand in the way of this and ridicule anyone thinking they'd be able to perform section 2 of the contract.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

The problem isn't the authors. The authors are the good guys. I like the authors. I have to believe that the authors want me to read their books.

I want to enter into the "standard contract" with the authors, which is basically:

1. You: write good books
2. Me: read and enjoy your books, and pay you the compliment of caring about your characters and substituting, albeit briefly, the fictional reality you've lovingly crafted for my own.

The publisher, in this instance, has chosen to stand in the way of this and ridicule anyone thinking they'd be able to perform section 2 of the contract.

Then it is up to the authors to sign with another publisher. If they want me (who is only purchasing ebooks for recreational reading) to read their books, then they had best have a heart to heart with their publisher, if that publisher is McMillan.

It doesn't matter how much of a good guy the author is ... if their books are not available in a format I can read on my Kindle, I'm not reading them. Further, if they write in a serialized format with only a few of the serial in an ebook form, then I'm not touching the entire series until such time as it is. Period.

I'm sorry if the authors lose out in this arrangement, but whether an author chooses to sign with a company that is not going to publish anything but pbooks is their problem ... I'm not going to make it mine.

[pshrynk]

[sarcasm]That will get them to buck up![/sarcasm]

[jpchan]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Hi, Marcus.

Allow me to attempt a calmer description of the problem, as I perceive it. The core of PNH's and his friends' mockery of me seems to be they think I'm complaining about "free books", or as he put it, "free ice cream". Well, of course he has the right to laugh at his own jokes, but that's not the issue at all. Why? Because these weren't "free books".

They were:

1. A promotion to a site with vague purpose, which many, many people (not just supremely silly moi) thought would be a place for the "rest" of the books. Not so. Footnote: and Tor has never apologized for that misunderstanding, in fact, Torie and PNH on the tor.com site react in flabbergasted ridicule that anyone could think that was the case, and after all, how could anyone complain about "free books"! A circular, and demeaning, reaction.

2. Book 1 of X of a series. Some of these books ended abruptly. Where is book two? At your bookstore, in print editions - ok. Fine, but that isn't the expectation created by Tor. This was an e-book promotion, umm - a promotion featuring e-books.

3. Not truly "free". Books take time to read. A good book draws the reader in, intellectually and sometimes emotionally. Reading a book is an INVESTMENT, in the book, the plot, the characters, the author. That's what books are for. That's why we read. That's why SF fandom exists, and it's why Tor is in business. If you put time and thought and effort and emotion into a book, that book isn't free. I would expect Tor's Editor-in-Chief to understand this, rather than mock it.

So, when I read a "free" book that's part 1 of a series, and expect to find part 2 of that series on the site that promoted that book, and don't find it, is it really so shocking that I would be frustrated? I suggest that is the natural response, and it is profoundly disturbing to see that the Editor-in-Chief of TOR doesn't understand this.



For someone who claims to be part of "a bunch of skiffy true believers", this seems a shocking disconnect.

His other responses, that hey, Tor's business plans aren't really open for discussion, they have no obligation to reveal anything to anybody, and they've already said something is in the works, and that's all there is to it - well, they are well-taken. Fair enough. Not the answer we all wanted, but that's all the answer we're going to get. I can live with that.

Or to put it this way:

"Hi here is a free sample of crack. Come to the corner or 3rd and main look for the guy in the gray overcoat."

At the corner of 3rd and main.
Guy in the gray overcoat: " oh you got that free sample of crack? Well I'm not selling any; lets talk about these Amway products I'm selling"

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

[sarcasm]That will get them to buck up![/sarcasm]

I don't want to make them "buck up," pshrynk. I just don't want to be forced into getting hooked on any authors whose work is not available in an ebook format.

I didn't purchase my first Terry Pratchett book until I was sure that the entire Discworld series was available in Kindle format. Then, I bought 38 books all in one session.

I realize I'm only one reader, same as I am only one voter. My single vote doesn't amount to much ... but I still vote for what I believe in. My 50 or 60 book purchases each year also amount to pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. However, I'm just not going to be spending any of that money over at TOR, and I felt that I was within my rights to tell them why.

It's ok if you disagree with me.

[Cthulhu]

Wow.

This whole episode reminds me how carefully one should consider the words and tenor used in online fora. Taylor, bet you lament your de-emotification tactics now, eh?

I mean, that Hayden fellow comes across as quite a pompous underside.
Ironically, it seems that he did just what you did---he posted out of emotion. That leads to misunderstanding. Misunderstandings come easier with emotion-involvement, and lead to suffering. Suffering leads to prequels.

As a poster on Tor.com said, the only reason I am aware of publishers is because they are not providing the content that I crave. Not that I gave TOR oodles of money before, but I will need to think seriously about supporting them in the future.

"Watch the skies" my shiny metal *ss.

@ Taylor: Stay away from TOR.com. Seriously. No good can come of it. Would encourage you to rant and rave and vent here, where folks are a bit more understanding and accepting.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

[sarcasm]That will get them to buck up![/sarcasm]

Hey pshrynk, they already bucked up! No that word had a "f" in it, didn't it?

[Taylor514ce]

No, actually, I don't regret my post in the least. It's not my fault it was deliberately misunderstood. If PNH wants to go off on a tangent, giggling at his own misconceptions and carefully preening his rougish, outlaw persona... well, it's his site.

And, the question was answered. So, in an albeit roundabout and childish way, he did give us all the information we wanted.

So, all-in-all, we learned some valuable stuff:

1. Ebooks will be forthcoming, likely through Baen.
2. TOR isn't going to say anything else about it.
3. www.tor.com isn't tor's website. For tor books, click the "Looking for Tor Books" link, which will not take you to the site for Tor Books in e-book format, because those will come from Baen. Probably. Eventually. Stop bugging us! Sheesh, just shut up and eat your ice cream!
4. Tor's Editor-in-Chief doesn't understand that people can become passionate about books. It's a laughable concept.

That's about all I need to know, and I don't regret bringing that out in the open.

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I don't want to make them "buck up," pshrynk. I just don't want to be forced into getting hooked on any authors whose work is not available in an ebook format.

I didn't purchase my first Terry Pratchett book until I was sure that the entire Discworld series was available in Kindle format. Then, I bought 38 books all in one session.

I realize I'm only one reader, same as I am only one voter. My single vote doesn't amount to much ... but I still vote for what I believe in. My 50 or 60 book purchases each year also amount to pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. However, I'm just not going to be spending any of that money over at TOR, and I felt that I was within my rights to tell them why.

It's ok if you disagree with me.

[sarcasm]I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you. I'll tear your skin off for a fedora and use your legs to prop up the drying rack I'm going to make from your ribcage, to dry out your intestines and use them as chord for a necklace to hang your shrivelled bollocks from, you stinking, grass-eating, ruminating, cursed camelid.[/sarcasm]

[Cthulhu]

@ Taylor:

I don't think that you have anything to regret. Was simply poking fun at you/pointing out how thorny an issue it is to write passionately in places like these.
Besides the added fuel of quasi-anonymity, it's quite easy to be misread and become even more enraged at that. You're right: PnH was the only person there who never relented, never tried to be magnanimous or anything but offensive. While it is laudable that the chief editor interacts with the mere underlings that consumers feel like sometimes, they need to watch their language and demeanor. No one was asking him to be a doormat, but he need not have been so derisive.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by slayda

Hey pshrynk, they already bucked up! No that word had a "f" in it, didn't it?

I think so. At the risk of yet another analogy ... there was a time (long ago) when I used to shop (a lot) at Robinsons-May and Circuit City. Then, I decided that they had lousy customer service, and so I stopped shopping there.

The loss of maybe $5000 a year at R-M and $10000 a year at CC, I am sure didn't even put a dent in them. But then, over time a funny thing happened. Apparently a lot of people got fed up with that sort of treatment. R-M sort of went away, and I understand that CC is in a bit of trouble.

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

No, actually, I don't regret my post in the least. It's not my fault it was deliberately misunderstood. If PNH wants to go off on a tangent, giggling at his own misconceptions and carefully preening his rougish, outlaw persona... well, it's his site.

And, the question was answered. So, in an albeit roundabout and childish way, he did give us all the information we wanted.

So, all-in-all, we learned some valuable stuff:

1. Ebooks will be forthcoming, likely through Baen.
2. TOR isn't going to say anything else about it.
3. www.tor.com isn't tor's website. For tor books, click the "Looking for Tor Books" link, which will not take you to the site for Tor Books in e-book format, because those will come from Baen. Probably. Eventually. Stop bugging us! Sheesh, just shut up and eat your ice cream!
4. Tor's Editor-in-Chief doesn't understand that people can become passionate about books. It's a laughable concept.

That's about all I need to know, and I don't regret bringing that out in the open.

We'll see what happens. As I mentioned, I'll start reading those authors if and when enough of their books are available in eformat that it makes it worth it (to me) to read them. I've been through the frustration of starting a series not knowing that I would not be able to get any of the sequels before (PJF Riverworld). I am simply not going through that again.

Originally Posted by pshrynk

[sarcasm]I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you. I'll tear your skin off for a fedora and use your legs to prop up the drying rack I'm going to make from your ribcage, to dry out your intestines and use them as chord for a necklace to hang your shrivelled bollocks from, you stinking, grass-eating, ruminating, cursed camelid.[/sarcasm]

Right back at you, darling. No matter what you toss at me, I'll still love you tons.

[pshrynk]

i have got to bookmark that thread for all eternity, just for that posting.