anyone worried about US borders wrt ebooks?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

So, would someone please take a moment and explain the humor behind "geocities business page" and swallowing toads??

There's a Larry Niven quote that's applicable, to the effect of "Want to have a good day? Swallow a toad first thing in the morning. Guaranteed nothing worse will happen all day, to you or the toad!"
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

There's a Larry Niven quote that's applicable, to the effect of "Want to have a good day? Swallow a toad first thing in the morning. Guaranteed nothing worse will happen all day, to you or the toad!"
______
Dennis

And here I've read everything Larry Niven ever wrote, and I do not remember that quote. I will try to remember than one ... can't promise anything ... quotes to me are a lot like jokes, they are not quite trivial enough to stick in my brain. Now make it something really insanely trivial .... like how to tell at first glance that someone has a pseudomonas infection in their lungs .... that I'll remember.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

And here I've read everything Larry Niven ever wrote, and I do not remember that quote.

I don't know if it's in one of his books. I believe it was a comment he originally made at a LASFS meeting, during one of their "poker for blood" sessions.
______
Dennis

[DeanH]

I have travelled outside of the US at least once a year since 2000 and upon return never once has the US Customs even asked about my laptop, MP3, digital camera or cell phone ... I'm not sure why they would take an interest in my Sony Reader. If anyone wanted to bring in illegal digital media for distribution why carry it when you could email it.

With the vast number of commercially produced boot-legged DVDs and CDs for sale on the streets I don't think they are worried about me.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I don't know if it's in one of his books. I believe it was a comment he originally made at a LASFS meeting, during one of their "poker for blood" sessions.
______
Dennis

Well, that makes me feel much less senile.

Originally Posted by DeanH

I have travelled outside of the US at least once a year since 2000 and upon return never once has the US Customs even asked about my laptop, MP3, digital camera or cell phone ... I'm not sure why they would take an interest in my Sony Reader. If anyone wanted to bring in illegal digital media for distribution why carry it when you could email it.

With the vast number of commercially produced boot-legged DVDs and CDs for sale on the streets I don't think they are worried about me.

Spoken like a man with a true grip on reality. That's very likely exactly the way it will stay. Personally, I think that a lot of people are a little over anxious about a whole lot of nothing.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by acidzebra

My reality was not so much tweaked as I much as I had some stereotypes strengthened. The geocities business page was funny, though.

Be very careful about stereotypes. They are all too often the sign of a closed mind and rigid thinking.

We're you referring to my cat's website?? I wouldn't call that a "business" page ... unless that sort of humor passes for business in your culture. If that's the case ... then ... oooookaaay, whatever floats your boat.

Personally, "Newton's Alley" was never more than a way to have some fun. Especially Newton's Diary, which was a text and graphic recreation of one of the adventures "the cats" had in our chat room and on rec.pets.cats.

We used to do a lot of what a few people have done here. Namely, start a story, and then let the next poster carry it on from there. Instead of pandas, however, we dealt pretty much exclusively in cats with the occasional dog (there was this one German Shepherd named Giuliani who loved cats and used to come to all the parties. In fact, as I recall, she was the guest of honor at the Annual Jellicle Ball one year and arrived in a yellow ballgown.)

Yeah .... who would have thought I was clinically insane??

[Milarepa]

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin


I find this thread exceptionally disturbing it what it implies with regards to American's attitudes about civil liberties. I am ashamed that the only people who seem to be concerned about OUR civil liberties are foreign citizens, and when they point out to us that we are in danger of losing civil liberties our response consists of insults and their being told to shut up and mind their own business (so to speak.)

I am not impressed with a law degree, particularly when it is waved so flagrantly under people's noses with the belief that this gives that person the right to be dismissive, rude, and arrogant. I personally believe this to be the biggest problem with the legal profession. I also sincerely wish that all of the attorneys would pack up and leave Washington or at least stop writing laws in such a way that it takes years of schooling to be able to even voice an opinion about them, but I guess we all need job security huh?

We can have freedom or security, and I for one would much rather live a free man than die securely in a cage of our own making.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Milarepa

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin


I find this thread exceptionally disturbing it what it implies with regards to American's attitudes about civil liberties. I am ashamed that the only people who seem to be concerned about OUR civil liberties are foreign citizens, and when they point out to us that we are in danger of losing civil liberties our response consists of insults and their being told to shut up and mind their own business (so to speak.)

Customs regulations have just about nothing to do with your or my "civil liberties" .... so please to dismount from your high horse.

Originally Posted by Milarepa

I am not impressed with a law degree, particularly when it is waved so flagrantly under people's noses with the belief that this gives that person the right to be dismissive, rude, and arrogant. I personally believe this to be the biggest problem with the legal profession. I also sincerely wish that all of the attorneys would pack up and leave Washington or at least stop writing laws in such a way that it takes years of schooling to be able to even voice an opinion about them, but I guess we all need job security huh?

We can have freedom or security, and I for one would much rather live a free man than die securely in a cage of our own making.

I don't remember waving anything under anyone's nose. But my arrogance is generally in direct proportion to the stupidity of the person on the other side of the argument.

In fact, the only reason my law degree even came up is because some complete idiot made a point of insisting that I had none.

And, for that matter .... I'm not overly impressed with you. If you want to live in a place that is (1) entirely "free" and (2) entirely "secure" .... then, please move there ... and do let us all know (1) where it is and (2) how much you are enjoying it.

Arrogantly yours,

Ricky Maveety

[joblack]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Ok ..... you guys are doing it again. Either these comments are waaaay over my head and really really funny, or ..... nope, forget the alternative.

So, would someone please take a moment and explain the humor behind "geocities business page" and swallowing toads??

It's bad enough I can't remember a good joke, worse when I don't even get them.

It´s not only a joke - it´s a saying / proverb in Germany ("Jede Kröte schlucken" - To swallow every toad ...) - it means a person is submissive and does everything he/she is told (by the Government).

I thought there is a similar saying in English ... my point is that it´s outrageous that the government can take your civil rights. And it´s even more outrageous that the majority obviously doesn´t care.

There is private date on your e-book Reader / Laptop and no one should have the right to just confiscate it.

I hope the next president will restore the constitution and the civil rights in the USA.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by joblack

It´s not only a joke - it´s a saying / proverb in Germany ("Jede Kröte schlucken" - To swallow every toad ...) - it means that a person who is submissive and does everything he/she is told (by the Government).

I thought there a some similar saying in English ... my point is that it´s outrageous that the government can take your civil rights. And it´s even more outrageous that the majority doesn´t care.

There is private date on your e-book Reader / Laptop and no one should have the right to just confiscate it.

I hope the next president will restore the constitution and the civil rights in the USA.

Ah ... well for one thing, border searches have nothing to do with "civil rights." So ... sorry, but you all are sort of missing the big picture with that one.

Next point ... no one is "confiscating" your private data. So, I really wish the folks who don't get that point would stop repeating it like some sort of strange mantra.

The next president is not going to have to "restore civil rights" with respect to searches at the international borders, because "civil rights" are not being infringed.

It's really that simple. I'm sorry that so many of you don't understand that. But ... really, it's not exactly rocket science.

[joblack]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Ah ... well for one thing, border searches have nothing to do with "civil rights." So ... sorry, but you all are sort of missing the big picture with that one.

Next point ... no one is "confiscating" your private data. So, I really wish the folks who don't get that point would stop repeating it like some sort of strange mantra.

The next president is not going to have to "restore civil rights" with respect to searches at the international borders, because "civil rights" are not being infringed.

It's really that simple. I'm sorry that so many of you don't understand that. But ... really, it's not exactly rocket science.

That´s not right. If I fly from Germany to the USA they can confiscate my tech stuff (laptop, e-book reader, ...) without any reason ('Don´t like your nose ..') and I can try to get it back. Additionally they want fingerprints from me (welcome police state) ...

As an offtopic: They could also arrest me because I could have the same name as some 'terrorist' (which I supposely don´t have because I´m born in Germany ... but ...) and I could find myself a nice place in Guantanamo Bay (and I would rot there until the end of time ...).

If they take your property and you´re freedom it isn´t depending on your civil rights?

You don´t have to be a 'rocket scientist' to see that this is wrong.

For your defense ... in Germany it´s the same game. More and more surveillance because of the 'bad terrorist threat'. The majority doesn´t care about that as long as they are not directly affected.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by joblack

That´s not right. If I fly from Germany to the USA they can confiscate my tech stuff (laptop, e-book reader, ...) without any reason ('Don´t like my nose ..') and I can try to get it back.

As an offtopic: They could also arrest me because I could have the same name as some 'terrorist' (which I supposely don´t have because I´m born in Germany ... but ...) and I could find myself a nice place in Guantanamo Bay (and I would rot there until the end of time ...).

If they take your property and you´re freedom it isn´t depending on your civil rights?

You don´t have to be a rocket scientist to see that this is wrong.

No .... they can "search" it. Please do point me to anything in the customs laws and policies of the United States that says they may "confiscate" it for no reason.

Search .... they look at it.

Confiscate ... they take it away and you don't get it back.

If they take my property because I have broken a law that allows them to take my property, then no .... that is not an infringement of my civil rights.

In addition, border searches generally are not considered to be an infringement of civil rights. Never have been, and I doubt they ever will be.

If you are detained as an "enemy combatant" ... then I feel heartily sorry for you. Even more so if it is in error. However, people determined to be either terrorists or enemy combatants are on very shaky ground these days.

The "civil rights" of non-citizens is a very complex area of the law here. However, as mentioned below ... in a rather long post ... whether or not you have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" at the international border depends on what the Customs Department dictates.

And, please do not confuse the jobs of the legislative, executive and judicial branches. If the executive branch of our government (as in Customs) comes up with a policy, and the judicial branch determines that said policy is not a violation of anyone's civil rights, and the legislative branch does not see fit to enact a law that over rides that policy .... what the next president has to say about it isn't going to matter all that much.

It's something I rather like about this country. No matter how big a boob gets voted into the office of president ... things still seem to work out in the end.

And .... if you see something wrong with that system, then as far as I can tell, you just don't have a very good grasp on the whole topic. No reason that you should ... you don't live here, you haven't made all that much of a study of it, but it never seems to fail that the people who understand our system of government the least are always the ones who want to complain the most about it.

[joblack]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

No .... they can "search" it. Please do point me to anything in the customs laws and policies of the United States that says they may "confiscate" it for no reason.

Search .... they look at it.

Confiscate ... they take it away and you don't get it back.

If they take my property because I have broken a law that allows them to take my property, then no .... that is not an infringement of my civil rights.

In addition, border searches generally are not considered to be an infringement of civil rights. Never have been, and I doubt they ever will be.

If you are detained as an "enemy combatant" ... then I feel heartily sorry for you. Even more so if it is in error. However, people determined to be either terrorists or enemy combatants are on very shaky ground these days.

The "civil rights" of non-citizens is a very complex area of the law here. However, as mentioned below ... in a rather long post ... whether or not you have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" at the international border depends on what the Customs Department dictates.

And, please do not confuse the jobs of the legislative, executive and judicial branches. If the executive branch of our government (as in Customs) comes up with a policy, and the judicial branch determines that said policy is not a violation of anyone's civil rights, and the legislative branch does not see fit to enact a law that over rides that policy .... what the next president has to say about it isn't going to matter all that much.

It's something I rather like about this country. No matter how big a boob gets voted into the office of president ... things still seem to work out in the end.

And .... if you see something wrong with that system, then as far as I can tell, you just don't have a very good grasp on the whole topic. No reason that you should ... you don't live here, you haven't made all that much of a study of it, but it never seems to fail that the people who understand our system of government the least are always the ones who want to complain the most about it.

You haven´t understood my post correctly.

They are not only searching it. They are copying my data. My data is my property. I´m not sure if they can confiscate my data if they copy it. But its definitively more than just searching.

I didn´t say that the basic 'legal system is wrong' nor have I said the political system is fraudulent.

---

I´m seeing that the USA is shifting from a free country to a police state. The 'Patriot Act', the "enemy combatant", the increased surveillance or the 'war on terror'.

The differences in the three branches of government are known to me.

I don´t want to argue about deep legal interpretations - fact is, if you´re watching something else than Fox News, that the USA (as Germany as well) had more freedom 20 years ago than it has now.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by joblack

You haven´t understood my post correctly.

They are not only searching it. They are copying my data. My data is my property. I´m not sure if they can confiscate my data if they copy it. But its definitively more than just searching.

You are assuming this will happen. Why?

Granted a Customs official can request and search your laptop. Why would they? They won't do it just because they can.

A huge number of travelers pass through customs checks every day. They certainly aren't going to search files on laptops on a whim. They practice management by exception, and only look closely if they believe there is a good reason to do so. Otherwise, they could never handle the volume.

When I've traveled, the only interest shown in my laptop has been "Turn it on to prove it's a working laptop, and not a bomb in disguise." No one has shown the faintest interest in the contents.

The only occasions I can see in which a laptop would be searched and files examined would be if the examiners thought there was some reason to do so, and that would occur because an ID search of the traveler revealed something like an outstanding arrest warrant, or a suspicion that the traveler was a terrorist, criminal, or foreign agent.

I´m seeing that the USA is shifting from a free country to a police state. The 'Patriot Act', the "enemy combatant", the increased surveillance or the 'war on terror'.

The differences in the three branches of government are known to me.

I don´t want to argue about deep legal interpretations - fact is, if you´re watching something else than Fox News, that the USA (as Germany as well) had more freedom 20 years ago than it has now.

<shrug>

These things are cyclical. This sort of thing has happened before, and may well happen again. The question is whether it will be sustained.

Given the current political climate in the US, my guess is "No". Regardless of who wins the next Presidential election, the current administration has largely discredited itself by its actions, and there is immense pressure on the next to not repeat the mistakes. (They will make all new and different ones.)

There were some doomsday scenarios being floated around in the US a few years back positing ways in which the Bush administration might attempt to subvert the law and the Constitution to maintain themselves in power, up to and including canceling the elections and imposing martial law. That didn't happen, and would be highly unlikely to happen, almost regardless of the circumstances. Among other things, military officers take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution, not the current holder of an office. A President who attempted to declare martial law and make himself dictator might just discover that his military commanders would refuse to obey his orders.

Given some of the Horrible Examples elsewhere in the world, I don't think the US is anywhere near a police state. I grant the climate has been more liberal and the security less onerous at other times. And I agree that a good deal of it is pointless and unnecessary. Offhand, I'd guess about half of the security precautions currently imposed on travelers could be dispensed with with no perceptible increase in risk. That will happen slowly, because bureaucracies are ferocious about defending their turf. The agencies responsible for doing it will go to extreme lengths to preserve and extend their staffing and budget allocations.

But that's bureaucracy as usual, not police state.
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by joblack

You haven´t understood my post correctly.

They are not only searching it. They are copying my data. My data is my property. I´m not sure if they can confiscate my data if they copy it. But its definitively more than just searching.

I didn´t say that the basic 'legal system is wrong' nor have I said the political system is fraudulent.

---

I´m seeing that the USA is shifting from a free country to a police state. The 'Patriot Act', the "enemy combatant", the increased surveillance or the 'war on terror'.

The differences in the three branches of government are known to me.

I don´t want to argue about deep legal interpretations - fact is, if you´re watching something else than Fox News, that the USA (as Germany as well) had more freedom 20 years ago than it has now.

Ummmm ..... ok .... "copy" is not "confiscate." Copy and destroy is certainly not confiscate. So ... my question would be ... why keep using the word "confiscate" when that's not what is happening??

And, why use the term "police state" when that is also not what is happening?? I realize that it's a sort of "sexy" and incendiary term, but it's still not reality. I understand that you want it to BE reality, because then you will be vindicated ... but, I'm sorry to tell you, a valid border search, even if it is of data on your computer, does not a police state make.

I certainly understand that people have this idea that anything they have on their laptop is just so incredibly private that no one should ever be allowed to see it. The point is, that ... in this country ... according to recent policy ... which was NOT set up by Mr. George W. (Chimpanzee) Bush ... you do NOT have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your laptop, iPod, ebook ... data.

Period ... end of discussion. It isn't there. It's not happening. If it matters that much to you, either email it or leave it at home. It is NOT a violation of civil rights ... never has been, probably never will be. So, please to get over it.

Doesn't matter how rude, dismissive, or whatever the hell you want to call me, I am ... it is still reality. It is the law in this country. I happen to have no problem with the law in this country ... but then again, I live here. My family has lived here since 1623. We like it here. We plan to say here. So, unless you plan to move here, please allow me to have no problem with Customs searches in my country, and I won't bitch about Customs searches in your country. Deal????

Man .... bet party ever. Best burgers ever. A mixture of beef, pork, and venison. If there was a Buddhist hell, I would certainly be headed for it. However, I have had much to much wine tonight, and no sleep last night ... so I'm going to bed now.

All of you folks in foreign countries .... really, I wish to hell and back again that my country would stay the heck out of interfering with policy in your countries. Having said that, I really wish that you all would get a better education in the laws and politics of my country before spouting off things that simply have no basis in fact.

And, come to think of it ... that goes for people in my own country. If you really don't understand anything about how the system works, then just count yourselves very lucky that you can say things that are wrong on so many levels, and yet no one is carting you off to the gulag.

That makes me pretty proud of my country. Even if we have elected (and there is a LOT of debate about that) one of the all time stupidist human beings on the face of the earth to "lead" us.

Dead drunk .... going to bed now. G'nite.