Is ebook piracy on the rise?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by nekokami

jakewastaken, just as you don't want to be "labeled" or have someone else assume things about you, I think it would be helpful if you don't assume that everyone who complains about downloading from the darknet is a hypocrite. There really are people who have never done it. I'm not claiming to be one, but I know of quite a few.

This is a topic that always seems to raise tempers, but sometimes the occasional nugget of useful information turns up that seems to justify leaving these threads running (like the information about how library systems work in other countries). So I'd like to ask, with my "moderator" hat on, that we try to keep this discussion as civil as possible.

(And no, I don't want to hear "but they said it first!")

No problem. I'm done.

[stepanok]

ok ok.....But PLEASEEE.....remove the picture with that ugly white thing you're holding.....we might be criminals...yes...but ones with taste

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Lexicon

I think desertgrandma was referring to the editing of quotes which are included in later messages.

"Fixed it for you" posts are fairly common on most of the forums I frequent and are used to point out errors or, more commonly, to change the meaning of a quote for humorous effect. Doing so without mentioning that you have done it is generally considered very bad form, although even then it is usually pretty obvious to anybody reading the thread what has been done.

I suppose I could go back and edit the quotes back to their original form and then change my part of the text to include the modified version of the quote. Seems like a waste of time though, given that it is obvious what is being done.

People do it in the Lounge here for humorous reasons, but I think it's probably best to avoid it in these high-temperature DRM/copyright discussions. Going back and editing old posts is hardly needed, but it's something to keep in mind for the future.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by stepanok

ok ok.....But PLEASEEE.....remove the picture with that ugly white thing you're holding.....we might be criminals...yes...but ones with taste

Enough flame-baiting already!

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by stepanok

YES....YOU TOUCHED A NERVE.....i..don't really feel like going to HELL afterall......so i'll delete all the books i downloaded...after i have read them obviously!

Just curious, how old are you and what do you do for a living?

BOb

[jakewastaken]

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean that "stealing is wrong" is an old timey viewpoint. That statement is twofold. Many people don't understand the difference between stealing a product and thus depriving another of that product and copyright infringement. But even more so, the idea that we shouldn't talk about something that is right in front of everyone is an old timey view. Piracy IS occuring and many (but not all, I'm sorry for making it sound like everyone is the same; people do indeed have differences) people on this board have engaged in it at one point in time or another. Going for years pretending other viewpoints and situations don't exist is a long favored old-timey practice. I think we can have civil discussions about whether or not piracy is on the rise without claiming to be morally superior than others. This thread isn't titled "WHO AMONG YOU DESERVES TO BE SCORNED???." I hope that feeling of being a better person than I am grossly outweighs the amount of joy and satisfaction I get from reading hundreds of great books a year. Otherwise you're missing out.

[stepanok]

No problem. I'm a 56 year old penguin with a tuxedo, sometimes i wear a hat

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by stepanok

No problem. I'm a 56 year old penguin with a tuxedo, sometimes i wear a hat

Hey... erm, really? My long lost brother!

BOb

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Lexicon

Nope, fixed it again. "Taking something" implies that you are depriving somebody of a "thing". This is not the case in copyright infringement, that is precisely why it is not classed as theft - it does not deprive anybody of a tangible object.

I believe this is one of the root reasons for so much of the disagreement here: Whether or not an e-book represents something tangible. Many (like Lexicon) apparently maintain that an e-book is NOT tangible, and therefore not bound by the laws of tangible objects. This is fine, because there are other laws that can be applied to electronic files, to wit:

I see e-books as being more akin to broadcasts of a television program: While not a tangible object, per se, it still represents a specific, copywritten and protected work, and those who access them are still limited by law to what they are allowed to do with them--for instance, I cannot tape an episode of "Lost," then charge people to come to a private venue and watch those episodes, nor to make multiple copies of that tape and give them away, even for free... those uses are, by U.S. definition, illegal.

Downloading e-books that are meant to be paid for, without paying for them, is like pirating a cable signal without paying for it (and YES, I deliberately used the word "pirate," as that phrase is already used commonly in U.S. cable television for illegally obtaining cable signals, and I see no reason to dance around the word now). Accessing a cable signal that someone else has "pirated" makes you no less culpable for accessing it... if caught, you are considered as guilty as the person who made the cable signal available illegally, since it is presumed that you knew the signal was illegally offered.

Many of the discussions, debates and brickbat-throwing we have entertained (and endured) on this site have been rehashed and largely worked out in the television field regarding the handling, broadcasting, and profiting off of individual programs and series. IMO we would be smart to consider many of their solutions with regards to e-books, and to consider e-books NOT as "intangible" versions of paper-bound objects, but as electronically-distributed items of copywritten entertainment, with understood laws and permissions attached. I do believe that, eventually, this is exactly how e-books will be considered by law and practice, and how we will be inclined to deal with them.

Obviously there are differences between e-books and TV shows, most notably in the communications mediums involved. But there are also enough similarities to provide answers to most of the questions of access, distribution, payment, theft, piracy, etc, that we've discussed here. I think we should give those similarities a serious look, with an idea of finding the true common ground to evaluate this issue.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by jakewastaken

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean that "stealing is wrong" is an old timey viewpoint. That statement is twofold. Many people don't understand the difference between stealing a product and thus depriving another of that product and copyright infringement. But even more so, the idea that we shouldn't talk about something that is right in front of everyone is an old timey view. Piracy IS occuring and many (but not all, I'm sorry for making it sound like everyone is the same; people do indeed have differences) people on this board have engaged in it at one point in time or another. Going for years pretending other viewpoints and situations don't exist is a long favored old-timey practice. I think we can have civil discussions about whether or not piracy is on the rise without claiming to be morally superior than others. This thread isn't titled "WHO AMONG YOU DESERVES TO BE SCORNED???." I hope that feeling of being a better person than I am grossly outweighs the amount of joy and satisfaction I get from reading hundreds of great books a year. Otherwise you're missing out.

Discussions can be good & I personally enjoy a lively discussion. However these forum discussions do create a semi-permanent record that could conceivably be used by an organization like the RIAA. So a careful person might wish to not provide any ammunition for them.

Yes I know I live in a glass house too.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by jakewastaken;231038[COLOR="Red"

]I should have been more clear. I didn't mean that "stealing is wrong" is an old timey viewpoint[/COLOR]. That statement is twofold. Many people don't understand the difference between stealing a product and thus depriving another of that product and copyright infringement. But even more so, the idea that we shouldn't talk about something that is right in front of everyone is an old timey view. Piracy IS occuring and many (but not all, I'm sorry for making it sound like everyone is the same; people do indeed have differences) people on this board have engaged in it at one point in time or another. Going for years pretending other viewpoints and situations don't exist is a long favored old-timey practice. I think we can have civil discussions about whether or not piracy is on the rise without claiming to be morally superior than others. This thread isn't titled "WHO AMONG YOU DESERVES TO BE SCORNED???." I hope that feeling of being a better person than I am grossly outweighs the amount of joy and satisfaction I get from reading hundreds of great books a year. Otherwise you're missing out.

Understood. Really, I'm not missing out on anything. Whatever I can't download to my Kindle, I'll get at the library, or buy in paper version. There is enough, and please let there always be enough, room for both. I just can't deal with the 'wrongness' I feel about downloading from an illegal source. Its cheating someone, whether they know it or not.
As far as 'scorning' you, or feeling superior? Nah. Too many sins on this end to feel superior to anyone. You live your life as you see fit, I'll live mine.

[Greg Anos]

Neko-chan, here are several more for your list.

Excessive copyright length provides moral justifcation to unauthorized downloading.

Long copyright length is necessary for writers families future well-being.


Respectfully - RSE.

[axel77]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I've compiled a list of points of view expressed in this (and other) threads. Note that many of these are mutually exclusive-- this isn't meant to be a consensus, but an inventory of opinions expressed. I'm sure I missed some. Anyone want to chime in?

I was thinking we could have a survey or poll on sticky at the top of the section, so people could see that most of these arguments have been rehashed already, and see how people have weighed in over time.

DRM and piracy Points of View:

- Anyone who downloads an ebook from the darknet is a pirate and a criminal.

- Anyone who uploads an ebook to the darknet is a pirate and a criminal.

- Downloading or uploading ebooks via the darknet is a civil, not criminal offense.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet if you already own a copy of the same book in paper is morally ok.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet if it is out of print is morally ok.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet is the equivalent to borrowing a book from your local library.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet if you are poor is ok, because you wouldn't have been able to afford to buy it anyway.

- Most people will download ebooks from the darknet if they are available there for free.

- Few people will download ebooks from the darknet.

- Most people would pay for ebooks at a "reasonable price" if they were available, rather than downloading them from the darknet.

- Illegal downloads of ebooks are a significant threat to authors' incomes.

- Illegal downloads of ebooks do not affect authors' incomes significantly.

- Illegal downloads of ebooks increase authors' incomes significantly, by increasing exposure to the authors' work.

- Ebooks on the darknet are low-quality.

- There are high-quality sources of ebooks on the darknet.

- DRM is needed by publishers and authors to protect their intellectual property.

- DRM is evil - it punishes legitimate customers but doesn't stop hackers from copying files

- DRM is irrelevant

- Some kinds of DRM are ok, but not others.

- Ebooks should cost:
--The same as the current lowest-cost paper version
--The same as the current highest-cost paper version
--Discounted from the lowest-cost paper version
--Discounted by the difference between ebook production and paper production costs
--No more than US$6
--No more than US$2
--Free

- Authors deserve to be paid for their work

- Authors should depend on other sources for income, e.g. speaking engagements

- Publishers deserve to be paid for their work (editing, typesetting, etc.)

- Publishers are becoming irrelevant and should be cut out of the process.

Sounds like a worked out a good questionaire, do you also already drawn have the hypotheses to test?

[jakewastaken]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Understood. Really, I'm not missing out on anything. Whatever I can't download to my Kindle, I'll get at the library, or buy in paper version. There is enough, and please let there always be enough, room for both. I just can't deal with the 'wrongness' I feel about downloading from an illegal source. Its cheating someone, whether they know it or not.
As far as 'scorning' you, or feeling superior? Nah. Too many sins on this end to feel superior to anyone. You live your life as you see fit, I'll live mine.

Agreed. I'm glad we were able to cut back on the amount of venom escalating in this thread. Let's just be happy that we're both still reading. I mean so many people have already given up or never even given texts the chance. Surely those of us who remain literate can band together as brothers in arms against the death of the almighty book! We have differently tuned moral compasses, but our end goals are quite similar. Viva la libra!

[jakewastaken]

Originally Posted by slayda

Discussions can be good & I personally enjoy a lively discussion. However these forum discussions do create a semi-permanent record that could conceivably be used by an organization like the RIAA. So a careful person might wish to not provide any ammunition for them.

Yes I know I live in a glass house too.

Luckily I haven't heard much, if anything, about a large corporate organization comprised of failing business practitioners who wish to skirt anti-monopoly laws by banding together to bully the publishing community and readers at large. When the book industry starts bullying isps into giving out private information and begins attacking its very customers I'll go back and edit these posts and move my discussions to more underground quarters