About Kindles outside of the USA

RickyMaveety · 07-30-2008, 08:16 PM

OK .... now a Norwegian posted something in another thread somewhere, that Norway actually has contractual items, such as manufacturer's warranty provisions, dictated in its Constitution no less.

So ... either the Norwegians are a shoo-in for the most anal retentive populace on the planet, or this is something that is common in countries other than the US (where we most definitely do not put items like that in our Constitution .... no way .... no how).

But, that got me thinking. Now Sony has be in the manufacturing business for a long time, and they sell the products they manufacture worldwide. So, they probably have a whole team of lawyers in every country advising them on applicable laws with regard to manufacturing. And, because of this, it's not such a big deal to float a new product worldwide without having a really good idea as to how well it will be received.

But, while Amazon has been a worldwide retailer, to my knowledge, the Kindle is their first foray into manufacturing anything. And, I would hazard a guess that, until they have a serious grasp on how well the Kindle is going to sell in the US ... where they only have to deal with the US laws concerning warranties and limitations on warranties ... none of which are stated as a Constitutional right (with a five year term according to that poster), why would they want to branch out to several hundred smaller markets, each with their own set of warranty and other laws??

It's one thing to retail merchandise all over the place. The manufacturer is the one who is going to be stuck with the angry consumer in Norway who expects the Mexican manufacturer to comply with a five year warranty (and how exactly do they go about enforcing it anyway .... declare war against the country of manufacture??), but it's a whole other problem to be the manufacturer and sell the product worldwide ... because then you really are on the hook.

But, if that one lady or gentleman from Norway was correct, and Norwegian law provides (Constitutionally) that all products sold in Norway have a five year warranty, no matter what the warranty in the sales materials or packaging dictates ... putting aside for the moment that I really don't see how anyone would actually enforce the thing ... why would Amazon want to bother with selling the Kindle in Norway (which is a lovely country ... I know, I've been there, just not exactly a huge market, with a population of roughly one half that of just the County of Los Angeles), when there are going to be so many legal hoops to jump through??

Now, please don't everyone jump on me all at once, but I think maybe that's the reason why ... or at least one reason why ... the Kindle is not being sold outside of the States. Does anyone agree that that might be the case?? Or, is what the other poster said wrong?? I'm not an expert in international law ... so I'm just as clueless as the next person on the topic.

haridasi · 07-31-2008, 02:58 AM

It's 3 or 5 year warranty based upon the life expectancy of the product. And yes, it precedes the product warranty that the manufacturer itself sets on the product.

And if I purchase something in France and bring it home, I don't know how the Norwegian Consumer Council would think about the legal aspects of it, but I don't think I would have a great case.

Original posting can be found here: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=225372

HarryT · 07-31-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Now, please don't everyone jump on me all at once, but I think maybe that's the reason why ... or at least one reason why ... the Kindle is not being sold outside of the States. Does anyone agree that that might be the case??

No, I don't think that's the reason. The reasons are more likely to be (in no particular order of priority):

1. The current CDMA-based Whispernet comms module would need to be replaced by a GSM one for world-wide sales.

2. Amazon would need to negotiate a separate agreement with a telecoms provider in each separate country for Whispernet provision.

3. Many books have different publishers and different distribution agreements in different countries. In particular, many books have different UK and US publishers.

All these are obstacles to international sales. #2 is, I suspect, the major stumbling block.

I suspect that warranty issues are WAY down the list.

Argel · 08-01-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Now, please don't everyone jump on me all at once, but I think maybe that's the reason why ... or at least one reason why ... the Kindle is not being sold outside of the States.

It doesn't seem to have stopped Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel ...

RickyMaveety · 08-01-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

It doesn't seem to have stopped Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel ...

Again .... all companies that are already into manufacturing and on a global basis.

As noted ... Amazon has always been a retailer. Big difference between retailing and manufacturing. The retailer doesn't have to worry about warranties and the like. That's the manufacturer's problem. And, if every country decides to set its own warranty and other provisions on the manufacturer ... well, that's something to think about.

For example. I'm told that in Norway it's each Norwegian's constitutional right to have a five year manufacturer's warranty. So ... is that true only for good actually sold and purchased in Norway?? Because, if I'm a manufacturer and I normally have a two year warranty everywhere else ... and I decide to distribute to a retailer in Norway, I'm going to adjust my price up to compensate for the longer warranty.

But then, what if a Norweigian travels to Sweden and purchases the same thing for a lower price (because maybe the warranty is only two years in Sweden, so the price is lower there), and brings the item home to Norway. Does the five year warranty apply?? The item was not purchased in Norway even though it is available there.

And, what of goods (such as the Kindle) which are not available in Norway? Does a Kindle automatically have a five year warranty just because a Norweigian took it home?? And ... is that parts and labor ... just parts?? Also, if I understand what was posted about the warranty provision of the Norweigian Constitution ... the warranty cannot be voided ... no matter what abuse the consumer decides to mete out. So, they can screw with the hardware and software all they want ... it's still apparently the manufacturer's problem.

Looking at it from a purely business standpoint, if I were to even consider expanding distribution outside of the US ... as a manufacturer, I would be looking really closely at the countires to be targeted for distribution. If I was going to have to jack up my price because of non-voidable five year absolute warranties, and the country didn't have a very large population in the first place ... and then we're going to figure that maybe only 2-5 percent of the populace is going to purchase the product ....

Well, from the manufacturer's perspective ... where is the upside??

RickyMaveety · 08-01-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I don't think that's the reason. The reasons are more likely to be (in no particular order of priority):

1. The current CDMA-based Whispernet comms module would need to be replaced by a GSM one for world-wide sales.

2. Amazon would need to negotiate a separate agreement with a telecoms provider in each separate country for Whispernet provision.

3. Many books have different publishers and different distribution agreements in different countries. In particular, many books have different UK and US publishers.

All these are obstacles to international sales. #2 is, I suspect, the major stumbling block.

I suspect that warranty issues are WAY down the list.

Understood .... but considering the type of warranty we are discussing (or that I think is what Norway has by what was posted), a non-voidable five year ... and very absolute warranty ... the consumer can do god knows what to the thing and it's Amazon's problem for five years ... I think it must be on the list somewhere. And, I wonder how many other countries out there have such stringent laws??

The thing is ... I would think if it was just a matter of Whispernet and such, there wouldn't be such a big deal about proving that you have a US credit card and a US address. That makes me think that Amazon would rather not see the product showing up outside of the US in the hands of non-US consumers.

They can't have a problem with me taking my own Kindle outside of the US on vacations or business trips ... and Whispernet wouldn't work there. Clearly, I could purchase books from US publishers via computer there as well. I would think that Sony doesn't have a problem getting content for out of US consumers (or ... do they not sell the Sony reader outside of the US??)

I just can't help but think there is a connection to the fact that this is Amazon's first product that is actually manufactured with Amazon's name on it.

NightGeometry · 08-06-2008, 08:22 AM

A few things - there is a similar ruling for all EU countries, though it could be implemented differently on a country to country basis. I believe that in the UK the first 6 months it is up to the manufacturer to demonstrate that any problem was not their fault, after that it is down to the purchaser to demonstrate that an issue is a manufacturing issue. I actually think that the term is not necessarily for 5 years, but for the expected life of the product. I'm not a consumer protection lawyer (IANACPL), so don't quote me on that...

How does this work for cross border transactions - I'd assume that the law of the country of purchase is valid. This could get messy for distance transactions (i.e. the internet). But... as the same basic ruling covers all EU countries it *should* be the same across all EU countries...

What is the upside? For the manufacturer - arguably none (except they get to sell their product in a vast market - the EU). For the purchaser - vast, they should be confident that the goods they purchase are fit for purpose, none of this crazy 'it should be okay for 90 days then your on you own' malarky.

Again - I'm not exactly expert in this, and I'm sure someone can correct all the glaring inaccuracies and simplifications I've made.

murraypaul · 08-06-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

It's one thing to retail merchandise all over the place. The manufacturer is the one who is going to be stuck with the angry consumer in Norway who expects the Mexican manufacturer to comply with a five year warranty (and how exactly do they go about enforcing it anyway .... declare war against the country of manufacture??), but it's a whole other problem to be the manufacturer and sell the product worldwide ... because then you really are on the hook.

It isn't as simple as that though.
At least in the UK, if an item is not fit for purpose, or dies before a reasonable expectation of its lifespan, the sale of goods act places the burden on the retailer to make good, not the manufacturer. As a purchaser, the only contract you have entered into is with the retailer, you haven't made any agreements with the manufacturer.
So Amazon already have to have all the lawyers in place to deal with people whose iPods break after a month, and so on.

RickyMaveety · 08-06-2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murraypaul

It isn't as simple as that though.
At least in the UK, if an item is not fit for purpose, or dies before a reasonable expectation of its lifespan, the sale of goods act places the burden on the retailer to make good, not the manufacturer. As a purchaser, the only contract you have entered into is with the retailer, you haven't made any agreements with the manufacturer.
So Amazon already have to have all the lawyers in place to deal with people whose iPods break after a month, and so on.

I had no idea you could get an iPod at Amazon. Learn something new every day.

Oh, interesting about the UK. Here in the States we have manufacturers' warranties ... which can be extended through the retailer, but you pay extra for it. Most of the time I don't bother with extended warranties.

So, if you purchase someting on eBay in the UK, you essentially take it with no warranty?? I mean, good luck getting Joe Blow in the US to stand behind something he sold to someone overseas via eBay.

It certainly is a complex field ... and I'm really glad I didn't go into it. Most of it sounds incredibly unworkable to me.

LazyScot · 08-06-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Oh, interesting about the UK. Here in the States we have manufacturers' warranties ... which can be extended through the retailer, but you pay extra for it. Most of the time I don't bother with extended warranties.

So, if you purchase someting on eBay in the UK, you essentially take it with no warranty?? I mean, good luck getting Joe Blow in the US to stand behind something he sold to someone overseas via eBay.

It certainly is a complex field ... and I'm really glad I didn't go into it. Most of it sounds incredibly unworkable to me.

You still have manufacturers' warranties in the UK, but I think (and I am most certainly not a lawyer) the basis of the viewpoint is that you (as a consumer) have a contract and direct relationship with the shop. Essentially you gave the money to the shop, so the shop has the duty on it to provide suitable goods. Likewise, if you buy with a credit card, then the CC company has some responsibilities -- hence it is generally a good idea to use them (though I think paypal breaks that relationship).

I'm not sure how all this interacts with European law, but I think the cross border trade means that you cannot sell something in one European country and deny warranty to other European countries. Which could make some aspects of introducing the Kindle to the UK first, a little problematic (as, come to think of it, could some of the French rulings on iTunes).

However, all of the above "rights" seem to be based on your ability to shout and the size of your lawyers.

(To be fair, some shops are a lot better than others.)

RickyMaveety · 08-06-2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyScot

You still have manufacturers' warranties in the UK, but I think (and I am most certainly not a lawyer) the basis of the viewpoint is that you (as a consumer) have a contract and direct relationship with the shop. Essentially you gave the money to the shop, so the shop has the duty on it to provide suitable goods. Likewise, if you buy with a credit card, then the CC company has some responsibilities -- hence it is generally a good idea to use them (though I think paypal breaks that relationship).

I'm not sure how all this interacts with European law, but I think the cross border trade means that you cannot sell something in one European country and deny warranty to other European countries. Which could make some aspects of introducing the Kindle to the UK first, a little problematic (as, come to think of it, could some of the French rulings on iTunes).

However, all of the above "rights" seem to be based on your ability to shout and the size of your lawyers.

(To be fair, some shops are a lot better than others.)

Well, we do have some of that here as well. I mean, if the thing craps out on me at day two ... it will be the store I will return it to ... not the manufacturer. Most of the stores I shop at a really good about taking returns. If they aren't (and I'm looking at you, Circuit City), I stop shopping there.

But getting back to the original thing with the Norweigians ... the idea of an unvoidable, unlimited five year manufacturer's warranty on every product owned by a Norweigian .... well, that just seems insane looking at it from a legal perspective. Unless you can just sidestep little issues like jurisdiction ... which perhaps the Norweigians have found a way to do.

Prospect · 08-07-2008, 02:40 AM

Norwegian law regarding protection of consumer rights are to a large extent based upon and in line with the EU-regulations and it is not a part of the Norwegian constitution.

Norwegian law does not apply for products purchased outside of Norway, for instance from amazon.com or ebay.com. Some international enterprises are established in Norway and deals products from Norwegian sites like www.apple.no and www.dell.no. When doing so they are covered under Norwegian law.

07-30-2008, 08:16 PM	#1
RickyMaveety Holy S**T!!! Posts: 5,213 Karma: 108401 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Diego, California!! Device: Kindle and iPad	About Kindles outside of the USA OK .... now a Norwegian posted something in another thread somewhere, that Norway actually has contractual items, such as manufacturer's warranty provisions, dictated in its Constitution no less. So ... either the Norwegians are a shoo-in for the most anal retentive populace on the planet, or this is something that is common in countries other than the US (where we most definitely do not put items like that in our Constitution .... no way .... no how). But, that got me thinking. Now Sony has be in the manufacturing business for a long time, and they sell the products they manufacture worldwide. So, they probably have a whole team of lawyers in every country advising them on applicable laws with regard to manufacturing. And, because of this, it's not such a big deal to float a new product worldwide without having a really good idea as to how well it will be received. But, while Amazon has been a worldwide retailer, to my knowledge, the Kindle is their first foray into manufacturing anything. And, I would hazard a guess that, until they have a serious grasp on how well the Kindle is going to sell in the US ... where they only have to deal with the US laws concerning warranties and limitations on warranties ... none of which are stated as a Constitutional right (with a five year term according to that poster), why would they want to branch out to several hundred smaller markets, each with their own set of warranty and other laws?? It's one thing to retail merchandise all over the place. The manufacturer is the one who is going to be stuck with the angry consumer in Norway who expects the Mexican manufacturer to comply with a five year warranty (and how exactly do they go about enforcing it anyway .... declare war against the country of manufacture??), but it's a whole other problem to be the manufacturer and sell the product worldwide ... because then you really are on the hook. But, if that one lady or gentleman from Norway was correct, and Norwegian law provides (Constitutionally) that all products sold in Norway have a five year warranty, no matter what the warranty in the sales materials or packaging dictates ... putting aside for the moment that I really don't see how anyone would actually enforce the thing ... why would Amazon want to bother with selling the Kindle in Norway (which is a lovely country ... I know, I've been there, just not exactly a huge market, with a population of roughly one half that of just the County of Los Angeles), when there are going to be so many legal hoops to jump through?? Now, please don't everyone jump on me all at once, but I think maybe that's the reason why ... or at least one reason why ... the Kindle is not being sold outside of the States. Does anyone agree that that might be the case?? Or, is what the other poster said wrong?? I'm not an expert in international law ... so I'm just as clueless as the next person on the topic.

08-06-2008, 08:22 AM	#7
NightGeometry Zealot Posts: 139 Karma: 1057240 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brighton, England Device: Sony PRS-T1, Kindle 3G, Kindle DX	A few things - there is a similar ruling for all EU countries, though it could be implemented differently on a country to country basis. I believe that in the UK the first 6 months it is up to the manufacturer to demonstrate that any problem was not their fault, after that it is down to the purchaser to demonstrate that an issue is a manufacturing issue. I actually think that the term is not necessarily for 5 years, but for the expected life of the product. I'm not a consumer protection lawyer (IANACPL), so don't quote me on that... How does this work for cross border transactions - I'd assume that the law of the country of purchase is valid. This could get messy for distance transactions (i.e. the internet). But... as the same basic ruling covers all EU countries it should be the same across all EU countries... What is the upside? For the manufacturer - arguably none (except they get to sell their product in a vast market - the EU). For the purchaser - vast, they should be confident that the goods they purchase are fit for purpose, none of this crazy 'it should be okay for 90 days then your on you own' malarky. Again - I'm not exactly expert in this, and I'm sure someone can correct all the glaring inaccuracies and simplifications I've made. Last edited by NightGeometry; 08-06-2008 at 09:14 AM. Reason: Point creep - two things become a few things.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
I probably need two Kindles	gfmucci	Amazon Kindle	3	05-07-2010 02:29 PM
Are Kindles really worth it???	svakanda	Which one should I buy?	15	03-03-2009 10:25 PM
2 New Kindles?	lemontree255	News	6	08-24-2008 03:39 PM
Two Kindles	Elsi	Amazon Kindle	6	05-12-2008 08:48 PM
Wives and Kindles	Kingston	Amazon Kindle	10	03-05-2008 01:06 PM

07-31-2008, 02:58 AM	#2
haridasi Zealot Posts: 119 Karma: 603 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Oslo, Norway Device: irex iliad	It's 3 or 5 year warranty based upon the life expectancy of the product. And yes, it precedes the product warranty that the manufacturer itself sets on the product. And if I purchase something in France and bring it home, I don't know how the Norwegian Consumer Council would think about the legal aspects of it, but I don't think I would have a great case. Original posting can be found here: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=225372 Last edited by haridasi; 07-31-2008 at 03:51 AM.

08-07-2008, 02:40 AM	#12
Prospect Other Posts: 143 Karma: 644 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Norway Device: Cybook, Kindle	Norwegian law regarding protection of consumer rights are to a large extent based upon and in line with the EU-regulations and it is not a part of the Norwegian constitution. Norwegian law does not apply for products purchased outside of Norway, for instance from amazon.com or ebay.com. Some international enterprises are established in Norway and deals products from Norwegian sites like www.apple.no and www.dell.no. When doing so they are covered under Norwegian law.