Kindle user says Amazon remotely wiped her whole library [UPDATED: see first post] - Page 6

Kumabjorn · 10-23-2012, 04:02 AM

She got a call during the night from Amazon UK offering her a new Kindle.

BoldlyDubious · 10-23-2012, 04:36 AM

I just updated the thread title, and put the news at the bottom of the first post.

I'm relieved to know that Amazon did not perform remote deletion of books. Of course this is a very limited relief: Amazon retains the power to do such things (and what else? Read and/or delete content from Kindles even if it was not sourced from Amazon? We don't know...) whenever they want. Moreover, it seems to be confirmed that Amazon can decide at any time to terminate your account without giving you neither an explanation nor the possibility to prove that they're wrong. And I can't see how you can get back the books you "purchased" from Amazon if you don't have an Amazon account anymore...
I think it's unhealthy that such an unlimited power over their customers is allowed to companies; especially those that deal with important things (for society) like culture.

blogbook · 10-23-2012, 05:18 AM

I think she never really said that Amazon remotely wiped her Kindle. It was more like "I cannot redownload my books because Amazon closed my account and I cannot access any local copies because my Kindle is broken". And after some rounds of chinese whisper through the "blogosphere" the part about the broken Kindle got lost.

If I correctly remember the last reported case of a closed account, Amazon refused to do any more business with the person concerned (=selling him stuff) but he kept access to his account and his already bought and paid digital goods: apps, mp3 files and ebooks.

The current case seems to be a string of botched CS actions to me: No real communication with the customer and total account lock.

blogbook · 10-23-2012, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

...
I think it's unhealthy that such an unlimited power over their customers is allowed to companies; especially those that deal with important things (for society) like culture.

Yes, I don't like it either, but if devaluating culture were a crime, most TV programs and talk shows would be outlawed

ProfCrash · 10-23-2012, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

I just updated the thread title, and put the news at the bottom of the first post.

I'm relieved to know that Amazon did not perform remote deletion of books. Of course this is a very limited relief: Amazon retains the power to do such things (and what else? Read and/or delete content from Kindles even if it was not sourced from Amazon? We don't know...) whenever they want. Moreover, it seems to be confirmed that Amazon can decide at any time to terminate your account without giving you neither an explanation nor the possibility to prove that they're wrong. And I can't see how you can get back the books you "purchased" from Amazon if you don't have an Amazon account anymore...
I think it's unhealthy that such an unlimited power over their customers is allowed to companies; especially those that deal with important things (for society) like culture.

Sony, Kobo, and Nook can do the same thing. Any ereader with WiFi is at risk. This seems to pop up once every six months with Amazon. It is normally connected to an account that has been stolen or is connected to an account that has been used fraudulently. 90% of the time the "victim" suddenly remembers that they did all these things, normally abusing the return policy, and works it out with Amazon. I have yet to read of one of these cases were the "victim" was in the clear.

Amazon needs to handle these better but in the long run the likelihood of anyones account being closed maliciously or accidentily is pretty small. If it was happening a ton we would read about it with a great deal more frequency.

And because there is that small probability, I strip the drm and back up my books.

hapipiko · 10-23-2012, 07:57 AM

well, here is a link from someone who called Amazon customcare and this is what was said: https://p.6core.net/p/hx5voap6k84ndcrn

DiapDealer · 10-23-2012, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taustin

The reasons it was such a big deal were that 1) they did so without any notice or explanation until the internet exploded on them, and 2) among the marketing claims when they first introducted the Kindle was that they couldn't do so, and their terms of service made no allowance for doing so under any circumstances.

I don't recall anything (yay or nay) RE Amazon's ability to remotely remove content from a device in their original marketing claims. I'm not saying it might not have been there, only that I don't recall it and would appreciate seeing some corroborating evidence concerning those alleged initial marketing claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

90% of the time the "victim" suddenly remembers that they did all these things, normally abusing the return policy, and works it out with Amazon. I have yet to read of one of these cases were the "victim" was in the clear.

That's been my experience as well. Not to say it couldn't happen to a completely innocent party... only that the attention (not to mention the coverage) would be absolutely tremendous were innocent babes being separated from their purchased content with any sort of regularity. But I've yet to read any of these fairly rare incidents where the "aggrieved" customer didn't eventually reveal (little by little) the behavior that warranted being sanctioned in the first place. And then the conversation always devolves into variations on the "yeah, but it's the principle of the thing" theme. The very direction that that this thread now seems to be headed, in fact.

Access to your "original" licensed, DRMed e-content is always an extremely fragile thing; regardless of who you "bought" it from. "Honest" users have no more to fear in that regard from Amazon than they would from any other DRMed e-content retailer.

DrNefario · 10-23-2012, 08:29 AM

A lot of people have talked about liberating and backing up their content. Another approach is to recognise what you are actually paying for - a kind of extended rental - and adjust what you are willing to pay for it accordingly.

In my own case, I have never bothered deDRMing any of my Kindle books, even though I vaguely thought I might. They simply never go to my PC. I enjoy the convenience of being able to buy things and have them turn up automatically on my Kindle. I'm not in a great rush to give myself a lot of extra work obtaining and organising the backups.

I might live to regret it, but I have no complaints so far. If I didn't build up so many unread books, I'd probably never care. I'm not a big rereader.

BoldlyDubious · 10-23-2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hapipiko

well, here is a link from someone who called Amazon customcare and this is what was said: https://p.6core.net/p/hx5voap6k84ndcrn

Thank you, very interesting.
Despite the reassuring tone, two of the things that "Maria Jose from Amazon.com" writes are (for what I know) false:

1) we are not allowed to close accounts unless the customer requests it.
(...actually Amazon seems to do just this if they decide that you did something wrong, according to their own criteria that you are not allowed to know)

2) And also I can assure you that we can not wipe out the content on your Kindle, that's up to you.
(...they already demonstrated, thanks to the infamous "1984" episode, that they can)

Rich_D · 10-23-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

A lot of people have talked about liberating and backing up their content. Another approach is to recognise what you are actually paying for - a kind of extended rental - and adjust what you are willing to pay for it accordingly.

In my own case, I have never bothered deDRMing any of my Kindle books, even though I vaguely thought I might. They simply never go to my PC. I enjoy the convenience of being able to buy things and have them turn up automatically on my Kindle. I'm not in a great rush to give myself a lot of extra work obtaining and organising the backups.

I might live to regret it, but I have no complaints so far. If I didn't build up so many unread books, I'd probably never care. I'm not a big rereader.

I'm one that liberates my content. It's not a big deal for me, since I get books from multiple sources. When I buy, 90% is from B&N because it's convenient, but I also get a lot of books from the library and some from Google books. Whenever I hook up my nook to add those things, I download the nook books to my pc, strip the drm and back them up in Calibre.

The other reason I do this is in case I switch e-readers at some point, I don't want to lose all my nook titles.

DiapDealer · 10-23-2012, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

2) And also I can assure you that we can not wipe out the content on your Kindle, that's up to you.
(...they already demonstrated, thanks to the infamous "1984" episode, that they can)

That Amazon has the ability to remove content from a device does not mean that the technological tools necessary to do so are accessible to everyday customer service reps.

BoldlyDubious · 10-23-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That Amazon has the ability to remove content from a device does not mean that the technological tools necessary to do so are accessible to everyday customer service reps.

Sorry, but when you ask an Amazon customer service rep what Amazon can or cannot do to your Kindle, what they tell you should and will be treated as concerning Amazon, not the person of the service rep! I suppose that when you go to your bank and give some money to the cashier you assume that you are giving the money to the bank, not personally to the cashier... (otherwise please tell me where your bank is and I will try and get a job there ;-) )

misling · 10-23-2012, 10:33 AM

To me one interesting thing about this whole mess, is that the Kindles in question were bought used and/or received as (used/refurbished) replacements. This was true in a previous case as well.
Perhaps the 'questionable account' that keeps being referenced is that of the original owner? That could only be true if the device id is still linked (in amazon's databases) to the original owner in some way, of course.

HomeInMyShoes · 10-23-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

I think it's unhealthy that such an unlimited power over their customers is allowed to companies; especially those that deal with important things (for society) like culture.

Given the atrocities within the bookshelves of Amazon, I don't put a lot of credence in their importance with respect to culture.

Unless one is doing nefarious things I doubt one would have much to fear from Amazon. If someone doesn't like it they don't have to buy a Kindle or purchase from Amazon or register their Kindle at all. Corporations serve the bottom line of their investors and not the good of society as a whole.

I choose the poisons I do business with.

taustin · 10-23-2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't recall anything (yay or nay) RE Amazon's ability to remotely remove content from a device in their original marketing claims. I'm not saying it might not have been there, only that I don't recall it and would appreciate seeing some corroborating evidence concerning those alleged initial marketing claims.

I recall it distinctly, but I don't keep an archive of old advertising, especially advertising that leaves me uninterested in the product.

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10-23-2012, 04:02 AM	#76
Kumabjorn Basculocolpic Posts: 4,356 Karma: 20181319 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Sweden Device: Kindle 3 WiFi, Kindle 4SO, Kindle for Android, Sony PRS-350 and PRS-T1	She got a call during the night from Amazon UK offering her a new Kindle.

10-23-2012, 04:36 AM	#77
BoldlyDubious what if...? Posts: 209 Karma: 750870 Join Date: Feb 2011 Device: paper & electrophoretic	I just updated the thread title, and put the news at the bottom of the first post. I'm relieved to know that Amazon did not perform remote deletion of books. Of course this is a very limited relief: Amazon retains the power to do such things (and what else? Read and/or delete content from Kindles even if it was not sourced from Amazon? We don't know...) whenever they want. Moreover, it seems to be confirmed that Amazon can decide at any time to terminate your account without giving you neither an explanation nor the possibility to prove that they're wrong. And I can't see how you can get back the books you "purchased" from Amazon if you don't have an Amazon account anymore... I think it's unhealthy that such an unlimited power over their customers is allowed to companies; especially those that deal with important things (for society) like culture.

10-23-2012, 05:18 AM	#78
blogbook Groupie Posts: 167 Karma: 948780 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: Sony 505, KF HD 8.9"	I think she never really said that Amazon remotely wiped her Kindle. It was more like "I cannot redownload my books because Amazon closed my account and I cannot access any local copies because my Kindle is broken". And after some rounds of chinese whisper through the "blogosphere" the part about the broken Kindle got lost. If I correctly remember the last reported case of a closed account, Amazon refused to do any more business with the person concerned (=selling him stuff) but he kept access to his account and his already bought and paid digital goods: apps, mp3 files and ebooks. The current case seems to be a string of botched CS actions to me: No real communication with the customer and total account lock.

10-23-2012, 07:57 AM	#81
hapipiko hapipiko Posts: 35 Karma: 170000 Join Date: May 2008 Device: first iLiad V2 (now retired) Kobo touch, samsung galaxy tab	well, here is a link from someone who called Amazon customcare and this is what was said: https://p.6core.net/p/hx5voap6k84ndcrn

10-23-2012, 08:29 AM	#83
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,227 Karma: 12029046 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	A lot of people have talked about liberating and backing up their content. Another approach is to recognise what you are actually paying for - a kind of extended rental - and adjust what you are willing to pay for it accordingly. In my own case, I have never bothered deDRMing any of my Kindle books, even though I vaguely thought I might. They simply never go to my PC. I enjoy the convenience of being able to buy things and have them turn up automatically on my Kindle. I'm not in a great rush to give myself a lot of extra work obtaining and organising the backups. I might live to regret it, but I have no complaints so far. If I didn't build up so many unread books, I'd probably never care. I'm not a big rereader.

10-23-2012, 10:33 AM	#88
misling Zealot Posts: 106 Karma: 510000 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Kindle	To me one interesting thing about this whole mess, is that the Kindles in question were bought used and/or received as (used/refurbished) replacements. This was true in a previous case as well. Perhaps the 'questionable account' that keeps being referenced is that of the original owner? That could only be true if the device id is still linked (in amazon's databases) to the original owner in some way, of course.