Kindle user says Amazon remotely wiped her whole library [UPDATED: see first post] - Page 4

spindlegirl · 10-22-2012, 03:26 PM

After reading all of the above posts I am glad I have liberated all my freebies and purchased material and kept it.

Lutraa · 10-22-2012, 03:27 PM

To echo others' best practices:

1) Don't use your eReader to store your library. Use Calibre on a computer and back its library up often.

2) Don't rely on cloud storage alone for anything. If you do, you will be completely dependent on your internet connection, and on events beyond your control (like fire, bankruptcy, lawsuits, wars, etc.) that render the cloud servers temporarily or permanently inaccessible.

3) Don't keep your device's wireless connection "on" all the time. I know K users need this in order to synch between two devices, but it runs down your battery and makes it easier for Amazon to do things it shouldn't. I turn on my devices once or twice a month and monitor downloads etc. If I saw content start to disappear from my home screen, I'd turn the wireless off in a flash.

Finally, if this ever happened to me, I would seek redress through my credit card issuing bank, requesting a chargeback for the total value of all the books that disappeared. Even if Amazon is on the right side of the law with regards to deleting entire accounts when owners violate their terms of service, that does not give them the right to keep the money used to purchase the eBook licenses once the license has been revoked.

BoldlyDubious · 10-22-2012, 04:03 PM

Even if Amazon will give back to the unfortunate (or willingly malicious: this is really not relevant here) Norwegian user the full price of her books, the fact remains that content distribution business models like Amazon's Kindle grant all the rights to the seller and none to the purchaser. So much so, that the "purchaser" does not actually own anything.

This is bad for many reasons. To name one that people usually don't think about: if things go on like this, most of our children will NOT be able to build on their parents' collection of media. Such collections, actually being services tied to physical persons, will die with them. Libraries (and music collections) will have to be rebuilt from scratch at each new generation. However, young people will simply not have the money to re-purchase all the culture that their parents needed a lifetime to accumulate: so they will not even try. It's easy to understand how over the long run this can be very bad for the literacy, and general cultural level, of populations.

Maybe this problem (and others, such as entire libraries vanishing when the companies that they were "bought" from cease operation) should be deemed as enough damaging to society to interest governments? We should start now to think about ways to make culture less volatile and less subject to the whims (read: whatever generates profit) of media providers.

jocampo · 10-22-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lutraa

Finally, if this ever happened to me, I would seek redress through my credit card issuing bank, requesting a chargeback for the total value of all the books that disappeared. Even if Amazon is on the right side of the law with regards to deleting entire accounts when owners violate their terms of service, that does not give them the right to keep the money used to purchase the eBook licenses once the license has been revoked.

Good luck :-)

Even if it's not fair, violating any contract or agreement won't give you the right to ask your money back. So yes, legally they can keep your money, even after taking your ebooks away.

Don't get me wrong, not saying I am not with you, just that such action will be futile.

DiapDealer · 10-22-2012, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadievan

This is true. I do 'liberate' and backup all my books. I think what bothers me about this whole thing is that, if the story is true and as the user stated them, that Amazon will not give a full explanation to her. They will not budge and give her a chance to respond to charges. That and the fact that they removed books she already bought and paid for.

And Amazon is not the only company that has this type of attitude.

I don't disagree at all with your assessment of Amazon's handling of that situation. I was only questioning why a user who already—by their own admission—strips the DRM and keeps local backups of all their ebook purchases, would be leery of purchasing ebooks from Amazon because of this story. That person would never have to worry about their library being taken from them regardless of where they buy from.

j.p.s · 10-22-2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

You can read about it here (I got the news, and the link, from boingboing.net):

http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/...by-amazon-drm/

Saying that this is very disturbing is an understatement.

An update to the boingboing article says that Amazon did NOT wipe the kindle, which was already broken. http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kin...azon-dele.html

Amazon may be in the wrong for account deletion, but it looks like this is not a case of content deletion.

Ken Maltby · 10-22-2012, 04:41 PM

Hmm... "Associated Account", would that be how the work of Identity Thieves appear to
a company like Amazon? If a thief can steal your good standing with a company, and
then the company compound the theft by taking your legitimate purchases as well, it
would seem to me that the company should feel some obligation to protect the
legitimate customer. The investigatory steps required for that, should provide all the
information to enable a much better explanation than has been described as coming
from Amazon. So, I do think Amazon's actions should be called to account.

It may not come as a surprise that I also feel that allowing any purchase to be subject
to the fate or whims of others is a very foolish price to pay for a little convenience.

What was it again that DRM is for? Is this "side effect" not something that should be
listed on the label? Shouldn't there be a warning sticker?

Luck;
Ken

Kumabjorn · 10-22-2012, 04:47 PM

Purchasing DRM content may be hazardous to your mental health.

sadievan · 10-22-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't disagree at all with your assessment of Amazon's handling of that situation. I was only questioning why a user who already—by their own admission—strips the DRM and keeps local backups of all their ebook purchases, would be leery of purchasing ebooks from Amazon. That person would never have to worry about their library being taken from them regardless of where they buy from.

Ah! Ok. We are in total agreement then. I never worry about where I buy my books because I'm friends with Alf and his 'gang'.

tompe · 10-22-2012, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.p.s

An update to the boingboing article says that Amazon did NOT wipe the kindle, which was already broken. http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kin...azon-dele.html

Amazon may be in the wrong for account deletion, but it looks like this is not a case of content deletion.

So the subject header need to be changed here.

Also, if I remember correctly Amazon just guarantees that the book will be available to download a short time after you buy it which is perfectly reasonable and would not have been any problem if the books were without DRM.

chilady1 · 10-22-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadievan

Ah! Ok. We are in total agreement then. I never worry about where I buy my books because I'm friends with Alf and his 'gang'.

detayls · 10-22-2012, 05:19 PM

https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120

sadievan · 10-22-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilady1

Hi chilady. We belong to the same club.

CommonReader · 10-22-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocampo

Good luck :-)

Even if it's not fair, violating any contract or agreement won't give you the right to ask your money back. So yes, legally they can keep your money, even after taking your ebooks away.

Don't get me wrong, not saying I am not with you, just that such action will be futile.

I very much doubt that these t&c would survive the first challenge in court, at least in Europe.

Sydney's Mom · 10-22-2012, 06:41 PM

I'm so paranoid, I convert Amazon books, even though I am friends with Dark and Alf. Then I delete the Amazon version-figure I can always get that back from Amazon, although why I would want to, I don't know.

If you have and account in the cloud, there is a file on your computer with the books in it. Now, of course, if your account is deleted, it would probably wipe out the file on your computer as well. I just back up my Calibre library monthly.

10-22-2012, 05:19 PM	#57
detayls Addict Posts: 235 Karma: 1355374 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: iPad, iPhone, Kindle Voyage	Amazon did NOT wipe her Kindle... https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120

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10-22-2012, 03:26 PM	#46
spindlegirl Wizard Posts: 1,594 Karma: 21245891 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Canada Device: Kobo Libra h20, Paperwhite 2017, Phone & Tablet w Moonreader	After reading all of the above posts I am glad I have liberated all my freebies and purchased material and kept it.

10-22-2012, 03:27 PM	#47
Lutraa Well Read Posts: 87 Karma: 2425880 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Far North Device: KK 3G, K4B, Nook HD+, Galaxy S3	To echo others' best practices: 1) Don't use your eReader to store your library. Use Calibre on a computer and back its library up often. 2) Don't rely on cloud storage alone for anything. If you do, you will be completely dependent on your internet connection, and on events beyond your control (like fire, bankruptcy, lawsuits, wars, etc.) that render the cloud servers temporarily or permanently inaccessible. 3) Don't keep your device's wireless connection "on" all the time. I know K users need this in order to synch between two devices, but it runs down your battery and makes it easier for Amazon to do things it shouldn't. I turn on my devices once or twice a month and monitor downloads etc. If I saw content start to disappear from my home screen, I'd turn the wireless off in a flash. Finally, if this ever happened to me, I would seek redress through my credit card issuing bank, requesting a chargeback for the total value of all the books that disappeared. Even if Amazon is on the right side of the law with regards to deleting entire accounts when owners violate their terms of service, that does not give them the right to keep the money used to purchase the eBook licenses once the license has been revoked.

10-22-2012, 04:03 PM	#48
BoldlyDubious what if...? Posts: 209 Karma: 750870 Join Date: Feb 2011 Device: paper & electrophoretic	Even if Amazon will give back to the unfortunate (or willingly malicious: this is really not relevant here) Norwegian user the full price of her books, the fact remains that content distribution business models like Amazon's Kindle grant all the rights to the seller and none to the purchaser. So much so, that the "purchaser" does not actually own anything. This is bad for many reasons. To name one that people usually don't think about: if things go on like this, most of our children will NOT be able to build on their parents' collection of media. Such collections, actually being services tied to physical persons, will die with them. Libraries (and music collections) will have to be rebuilt from scratch at each new generation. However, young people will simply not have the money to re-purchase all the culture that their parents needed a lifetime to accumulate: so they will not even try. It's easy to understand how over the long run this can be very bad for the literacy, and general cultural level, of populations. Maybe this problem (and others, such as entire libraries vanishing when the companies that they were "bought" from cease operation) should be deemed as enough damaging to society to interest governments? We should start now to think about ways to make culture less volatile and less subject to the whims (read: whatever generates profit) of media providers.

10-22-2012, 04:41 PM	#52
Ken Maltby Wizard Posts: 4,466 Karma: 6900052 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: The Heart of Texas Device: Boox Note2, AuraHD, PDA,	Hmm... "Associated Account", would that be how the work of Identity Thieves appear to a company like Amazon? If a thief can steal your good standing with a company, and then the company compound the theft by taking your legitimate purchases as well, it would seem to me that the company should feel some obligation to protect the legitimate customer. The investigatory steps required for that, should provide all the information to enable a much better explanation than has been described as coming from Amazon. So, I do think Amazon's actions should be called to account. It may not come as a surprise that I also feel that allowing any purchase to be subject to the fate or whims of others is a very foolish price to pay for a little convenience. What was it again that DRM is for? Is this "side effect" not something that should be listed on the label? Shouldn't there be a warning sticker? Luck; Ken

10-22-2012, 04:47 PM	#53
Kumabjorn Basculocolpic Posts: 4,356 Karma: 20181319 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Sweden Device: Kindle 3 WiFi, Kindle 4SO, Kindle for Android, Sony PRS-350 and PRS-T1	Purchasing DRM content may be hazardous to your mental health.

10-22-2012, 06:41 PM	#60
Sydney's Mom Wizard Posts: 2,899 Karma: 6995721 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Idaho, on the side of a mountain Device: Kindle Oasis, Fire 3d Gen and 5th Gen and Samsung Tab S	I'm so paranoid, I convert Amazon books, even though I am friends with Dark and Alf. Then I delete the Amazon version-figure I can always get that back from Amazon, although why I would want to, I don't know. If you have and account in the cloud, there is a file on your computer with the books in it. Now, of course, if your account is deleted, it would probably wipe out the file on your computer as well. I just back up my Calibre library monthly.