Adios Sony, Let's try this again

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I find it encouraging that y'all have provided such absurd examples. This suggests that my arguments are not so unreasonable. I will state my position again:

I do not expect Sony to release updates. But, if they do, I expect Sony to release updates for both the 500 and the 505. If Sony releases an update for one device but not the other, then Sony has in effect abandoned the other device.

Agreed.

[Undue Process !]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I find it encouraging that y'all have provided such absurd examples. This suggests that my arguments are not so unreasonable. I will state my position again:

I do not expect Sony to release updates. But, if they do, I expect Sony to release updates for both the 500 and the 505. If Sony releases an update for one device but not the other, then Sony has in effect abandoned the other device.

No no no. I find your inability to comprehend what I have written discouraging because you are a key figure of the largest ebook advocacy group on the internet.

Let's start with a simple syllogism: The 500 is different from the 505. Software made specifically for one device cannot necessarily work on a device that is different. The updates on the 505 cannot necessarily work on the 500.

With me so far? Sony could very well release an update for the 500, but it wold very likely need to be a completely different update. Your logic goes like this: Sony released an update for the 505 that has allowed it to reflow PDF files and read the epub format. They have not released an update for the 500 that would make it slightly faster and perhaps provide the ability to delete books from the device. They have abandoned the 500.

Your 500 still works, you can still buy books from Sony's store, Sony still supports and sells the PRS line. There is no reason to be angry with Sony. Abandoning a device is not the same as not releasing a small software update to the device. If I understand your position you don't expect the 500 to be able to do what the 505 can, but because Sony hasn't added the little features like deleting books from the device to the 500 they have abandoned it even though those features are hardly worth the trouble of creating a whole firmware update and aren't that useful to most people, you think that they've betrayed their consumer base?

If you could actually respond to the points that have been made I'd be glad to continue this discussion, but you haven't exactly responded to anything that's been said other than "[stating] your position again" (which was very enlightening the third time around I may add) so if you persist in spouting your "f**k the corporate world, bitch, I'ma gonna build a ereader out of hemp and I'm gonna release a firmware update everyday and I will give it away for free because it will be a labor of love akin to the noble pursuits of Robin Hood," then I don't see what more I can say.

Sony has acted quite admirably in releasing an update for the 505 and the 500 doesn't need an update because it is stupid and can only support stupid baby features on its little baby processor.

[Undue Process !]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Agreed.

oh ok

EDIT: thats cool

[Nate the great]

I do understand that an update for the PRS-500 would have to be developed separately from an update for the PRS-505. I simply do not care. I still think Sony should be developing updates for the PRS-500.

I never said that the two readers could use the same update. What I was saying is that they can have similar _abilities_. There is no technical reason why the PRS-500 cannot support Epub and reflowable PDF.

What we are discussing here (as I understand it) is Sony's business decision not to develop upgrades for the PRS-500. This was not a technical decision. Your technical arguments are irrelevant to this discussion.

[moz]

I expected this. We are, after all, talking about Sony here. Sony have a long and distinguished history with many new inventions released to the public then left to die after selling well for a few years at a premium price. That is the Sony operating model - a slightly better product at a significant price premium, and churn the range regularly.

For comparison, there are still many people who dislike Canon because SLR lenses made before 1984 do not work on their newer cameras - Canon changed the lens mount. That's because people expect Canon to support older models (they will still repair the older lenses and cameras, for example, albeit at a price reflecting the antique nature of the products).

Knowing that is why this is the first Sony product I've ever purchased and with any luck will also be the last.

[Undue Process !]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I do understand that an update for the PRS-500 would have to be developed separately from an update for the PRS-505. I simply do not care. I still think Sony should be developing updates for the PRS-500.

I never said that the two readers could use the same update. What I was saying is that they can have similar _abilities_. There is no technical reason why the PRS-500 cannot support Epub and reflowable PDF.

What we are discussing here (as I understand it) is Sony's business decision not to develop upgrades for the PRS-500. This was not a technical decision. Your technical arguments are irrelevant to this discussion.

Okay, I agree with this. Sony has never provided a shining example of consumer friendliness, as moz has explained so well in the previous post, and it is definitely a turn off when trying to decide who to take your business to.

I just don't think that leaving Sony is the best option because they are currently one of the front runners in the e paper device market and I would stick around to see what they do with their technology in the future rather than give up on what might be a great product line.

And Nate the Great, I am sorry that I lost my temper; Are we still friends?

[UncleDuke]

it meets my needs and i'm happy with it

all you are doing is setting yourself up for heartbreak

do you get to trade in your wife every year for a new model?
why do they trade us in then?
i have threee exs i can let you have cheap

[fdp]

Alright, I'm listening to the people who are arguing that the PRS500 is an outdated machine with inferior hardware to the PRS505. It's my viewpoint that nobody gets anywhere in life if they can't try to the see the viewpoint of those who disagree with them, and so I've done a little research. My goal here is to help us all be educated consumers. I haven't had time in the last year or so to keep up with these forums, so I apologize if this is not new.

It is my estimation that the semiconductor parts used in the PRS505 are virtually identical to those inside the PRS500 and represent no real difference in capability. I have noticed some board redesign, probably to accommodate the changed form-factor, but it seems to me that there is no reason in the hardware itself that Sony cannot update the PRS500 as they have the 505. This may be shocking to those of you that believe that the PRS505 represents significantly advanced hardware, but it appears to me that the changes between the two are mostly cosmetic, in the user storage, and in the e-ink display panel (all worthy updates). If I am correct about the hardware than it seems that this lack of an update was probably more of marketing choice by Sony. Based upon certain offerings hinted at by certain Sony representatives on the front page of the site, they might be reconsidering that choice. I certainly understand why Sony would chose to update the PRS505 first, as it is the current model, but I am rather disappointed that they didn't bother even hinting at an update to the 500 until people became upset. Hopefully the following will help to clarify understanding of the model differences. It is possible that I have made mistakes, and so I am including the sources that I used to make the following comparisons.


---------------------> Microprocessor (Main CPU):

PRS500: i.MXL (MX-1)
Core: ARM920T
Clock Speed: 150Mhz or 200Mhz
Features: Integrated USB, LCD, MMC/SD, Memory Stick, SPI, MMA

PRS505: i.MXL (MX-1)
Core: ARM920T
Clock Speed: 150Mhz or 200Mhz
Features: Integrated USB, LCD, MMC/SD, Memory Stick, SPI, MMA

Analysis: The processors in the 500 and 505 are very similar if not identical.

source 1:http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit.../MC9328MXL.pdf
source 2:https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...?t=8426&page=3
source 3:http://www.flickr.com/photos/2172951...017270/in/set- 72157603454047408/


---------------------> Microcontroller (Secondary CPU):

PRS500: Renesas H8 38002
RAM:1k
ROM:16k
Package: 64-pin LQFP (FP-64E)
Voltage: 2.7V?
Mask ROM version

PRS505: Renesas H8 38004
RAM:1k
ROM:32k?
Package: 64-pin LQFP(FP-64E)
Voltage: 2.7V
Mask ROM version?

Features: I/O, Timers, A-D, LCD, external interrupt - all identical

Analysis: There are some slight differences in the two processors. The 16KB of extra memory in the PRS505 may allow for some improvement in operation, however I suspect that this processor is being used mostly to control the device in low-power mode (sleep mode, when the screen is off), and to handle some simple device functions such as the buttons.

source 1:http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/1539505.html
source 2:https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...?t=8426&page=3
source 3:http://www.flickr.com/photos/2172951...017270/in/set- 72157603454047408/


---------------------> RAM Memory:

PRS500: 2x 64MB SDRAM (Samsung)

PRS505: 2x 64MB SDRAM (Samsung)

Analysis: These seem to be the same.

(sources are the same as Microprocessor)


---------------------> ROM Memory:

PRS500: 1x 128MB - 64MB for program? (# = Total - Usable)

PRS505: 1x 256MB - 56MB for program? (# = Total - Usable)

Analysis: Although the PRS505 has more user ROM than the 500 it appears to have less program storage. This would mean that if anything the 500 should have more room for programs than the 505. This seems illogical so I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge about the PRS confirm or deny.

(sources are the same as Microprocessor)


---------------------> Flash ROM:

PRS500:16Mbit (2MB)

PRS505:16Mbit (2MB)

Analysis: Seems to be similar part with similar specs. This memory is for the Bootloader/BIOS, and perhaps the FPGA.

(sources are the same as Microprocessor)


---------------------> FPGA:

PRS500: Actel ProASIC3
Gate Count: ?
RAM: ?

PRS505: Actel ProASIC3
Gate Count: 125k
RAM: 36kb

Analysis: The FPGA is used to control the e-ink panel. It is likely that the same FPGA is used in both devices, however I cannot confirm this from the pictures I have seen. If somebody knows for sure this would be helpful. It is unlikely that a higher gate count on the FPGA would seriously impact performance, although it is totally conceivable that Sony could get better page turn/interface performance by implementing a function in the FPGA instead of in software on the Dragonball MX-1 CPU.

source 1:http://www.embedded.com/underthehood...printable=true
source 2:http://www.flickr.com/photos/2172951...017270/in/set- 72157603454047408/


---------------------> Flash Memory Card Controller:

PRS500: R5C807

PRS505: R5C807

Analysis: This is the same part.

(sources are the same as FPGA)


---------------------> Audio:

Parts seem to be identical.

(sources are the same as FPGA)



Conclusion: Things on the board have been moved around, but major components are very similar. From a hardware standpoint it does not seem that the PRS500 is much different from the PRS505. It isn't uncommon for a manufacturer to switch to a different component that is drop-in compatible (such as the H8 3002-4) if their supplier gives an incentive. I haven't inspected the OS code (I don't speak Japanese), but apparently the Linux Distro's are identical*.

*source: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26905.

[igorsk]

The USB and EInk controllers are different but yes, it's a marketing decision. Still it doesn't make it your right to demand an update. Your product works as specified, so they are not obligated to "fix" it.

[fdp]

I would argue that it is my right as a customer to demand what I believe is fair, and it is Sony's right as a manufacturer to make their own business decisions.

If we don't see eye to eye they might lose my business, which is what is on the table here. If I feel that they are not standing behind their old products why would I buy a new one? This kind of thing matters to me.

What Sony has done here is created a "nasty carrot". They are selectively choosing not to upgrade the model they aren't currently selling, even though the product is still in the middle of its life span and the technical impediments are probably minimal. They must be doing it to try to sell more PRS505's, and I am letting them know that in my case they are going to lose business instead of gain it. It's all about whether or not product support matters more than having the shiny new model.

As far as the product working as specified, I would bring up what others have about the crippled pdf and rtf features. The box doesn't say "98% of PDFs will be unreadable on this device, and if we figure out a way to change that you aren't entitled to the software update". One might even go so far as to say that they do owe it to the customers who bought the device partially due to implied pdf support to give them an update improving what can only be considered terrible out-of-box performance.

[MerLock]

Who knows what Sony is doing. Perhaps the software team had to meet the deadline to get a firmware update for the 505 to meet the UK launch. Now that is done and over with, perhaps they are going back to revisit providing a firmware update for the 500. Perhaps not with the same functionality as the 505 update but with whatever is possible on the 500 technology.

Till too soon in my opinion to know if they will be providing a firmware update for the 500 or not. If there isn't word on a 500 update, write them and express your feelings.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by MerLock

Who knows what Sony is doing. Perhaps the software team had to meet the deadline to get a firmware update for the 505 to meet the UK launch. Now that is done and over with, perhaps they are going back to revisit providing a firmware update for the 500. Perhaps not with the same functionality as the 505 update but with whatever is possible on the 500 technology.

Till too soon in my opinion to know if they will be providing a firmware update for the 500 or not. If there isn't word on a 500 update, write them and express your feelings.

You're right. Who knows. I don't. Perhaps they will send a $250 rebate to all Sony reader owners (both 500 505). This is about as logical IMHO as that they will update the 500 software when they said they wouldn't (no just scratch everything after software). I quit believing in Santa Clause & Sony.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by igorsk

The USB and EInk controllers are different but yes, it's a marketing decision. Still it doesn't make it your right to demand an update. Your product works as specified, so they are not obligated to "fix" it.

I don't think it's ever been a matter of obligation on the part of Sony to "fix" somthing. You are right, it is a marketing decision ... a bad marketing decision ... and a very bad PR decision ... but that's Sony for you.

The consumer always has the right to demand something. It's called "supply and demand." If enough consumers demand something from Sony, and don't find it in Sony products, or don't find that Sony is responsive to their demands ... they will simply purchase products somewhere else from someone who will supply whatever it is they demand.

It doesn't matter whether any individual's demands as a consumer are reasonable or not. If the company doesn't meet the demand, they simply lose those consumers.

Unfortunately, the reason that I think this is a bad PR decision is that Sony could come off looking like the best ebook reader manufacturer out there ... simply by supporting the 500 a little longer. I can almost guarantee you that while owners of 500s might not upgrade to the 505, they would probably stick with Sony and probably upgrade to another Sony later ... and it would be a benefit to Sony to keep these customers and, more importantly those future customers who will probably ask that owner of a 500 whether he or she would recommend Sony.

Companies are never obligated to make sound marketing and PR decisions, but then companies are never obligated to do the intelligent thing.

[MerLock]

Originally Posted by slayda

This is about as logical IMHO as that they will update the 500 software when they said they wouldn't .

They officially said they wouldn't? From what I've read here, Sony seems to be still considering it.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by MerLock

They officially said they wouldn't? From what I've read here, Sony seems to be still considering it.

Yes, that it what we were told. Unfortunately, some have interpreted that to be a brushoff. I used to think that. But now I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.