The editor fallacy

[RHWright]

Loving this thread. To all my fellow language geeks, can I just say:

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's really not hard to remember. None of the personal pronouns (my, his, her, its, ours, yours, theirs) have apostrophes. If you're not tempted to put an apostrophe in "his", there's really no reason why you should be tempted by "its" .

I think a lot of people think:

"The book's mission...." has an apostrophe, so replace "The book" with "It" and just add the apostrophe s....

Personally, to avoid that, suggest remembering the other side: If you're not trying to say "It is" then don't use the contraction "it's".

If you catch my drift, as they say.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by ApK

I think a lot of people think:

"The book's mission...." has an apostrophe, so replace "The book" with "It" and just add the apostrophe s....

Personally, to avoid that, suggest remembering the other side: If you're not trying to say "It is" then don't use the contraction "it's".

If you catch my drift, as they say.

I was always very good with the things that many people have problems with, (their there they're etc).

But yes, the reasons why you stated above is entirely why it seems natural for an apostrophe to be in all possessives.

"The dog's paw was hurt."
"Rover's paw was hurt"
yet no apostrophe allowed for "Its paw was hurt." Pronouns are the exception.

English is one of those languages with fewer reliable rules than in other languages I've dabbled in. (I'm not fluent in French but was good at it in school). So I can see why people are frustrated that the rules for possessives seem to be bass-ackwards.

[Barty]

As someone who learned English as a second language, I'm baffled that people can confuse its and it's. I never had to unlearn the mistake because I never learned it in the first place


Of course the spell checker has its own ideas and has a tendency to put in ' willy nilly, causing me to doubt myself (wait, is that right? No, why am I listening to this thing?)

[6charlong]

Originally Posted by teh603

Sounds more like grammar check than spell check; none of the spell checkers I've seen would try to figure out which "its" to use. Course is also been my experience that the grammar checker is wrong more often than its right; it favors a short, choppy writing style.

Yes, you're right, it's the grammer checker. I've found that the grammer checker, at least the one in Word for Mac 2011, is helpful. It does get the rules wrong, especially with writing that is intentionally colloquial, but it's always worth having a closer look at the text it tags. On a second look it often marks language that could be expressed better.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

But yes, the reasons why you stated above is entirely why it seems natural for an apostrophe to be in all possessives.

"The dog's paw was hurt."
"Rover's paw was hurt"
yet no apostrophe allowed for "Its paw was hurt." Pronouns are the exception.

But it's surely an exception that should be taught at the earliest stages of literacy, is it not? The fact that such a large proportion of otherwise reasonably literate adults are getting it wrong (even authors!) is what baffles me, because it's such a simple thing to remember.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But it's surely an exception that should be taught at the earliest stages of literacy, is it not? The fact that such a large proportion of otherwise reasonably literate adults are getting it wrong (even authors!) is what baffles me, because it's such a simple thing to remember.

Yes it should (assuming no hidden disabilities which affect language).

I at least expect it when someone is touting themselves as an accomplished author

I give a tiny bit more latitude when it's someone I don't know or a casual exchange, because I don't know someone's hidden issues. Not everyone can grasp these things logically. I have encountered many people with many different skills (my oldest adult child has special needs which are not obvious just by looking at her), and the reality is people just 'catch on' at different rates and about different subjects.

I remember one time getting annoyed after reading one person telling me for the umpteenth time, that they were trying to 'loose' weight, and my insensitivity came back in my face

But yes, at least where writing and being published is a part of their profession, I expect them to have some way to make up for foibles and grammar mistakes that they know they possess.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

Yes it should (assuming no hidden disabilities which affect language).

I at least expect it when someone is touting themselves as an accomplished author

I give a tiny bit more latitude when it's someone I don't know or a casual exchange, because I don't know someone's hidden issues. Not everyone can grasp these things logically. I have encountered many people with many different skills (my oldest adult child has special needs which are not obvious just by looking at her), and the reality is people just 'catch on' at different rates and about different subjects.

I remember one time getting annoyed after reading one person telling me for the umpteenth time, that they were trying to 'loose' weight, and my insensitivity came back in my face

But yes, at least where writing and being published is a part of their profession, I expect them to have some way to make up for foibles and grammar mistakes that they know they possess.

When you think about it, if you apply a loose interpretation, "loose weight" is in a way accidentally correct. They are trying set weight loose. If you can set loose dogs, surely you can do the same for kilos? They want those kilos to loosen, and once those kilos break loose they can relax and hang loose. They can enjoy the fact that their clothing is now loose. Some previously overweight and subsequently ignored women might find that once that excess weight is loosed, they are now offered more opportunity to become loose women.

All this is just me loosely speaking of course.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by 6charlong

Yes, you're right, it's the grammer checker. I've found that the grammer checker, at least the one in Word for Mac 2011, is helpful. It does get the rules wrong, especially with writing that is intentionally colloquial, but it's always worth having a closer look at the text it tags. On a second look it often marks language that could be expressed better.

"It's the grammer checker."

Don't do it, resist the temptation. Stop. You can do it - you can walk away. No, stop I said! Walk away now. Say nothing.

Ok - I'll look at another post.

[david_e]

.....

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by RHWright

Loving this thread. To all my fellow language geeks, can I just say:

Threads around here do tend to take a life of their own.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But it's surely an exception that should be taught at the earliest stages of literacy, is it not? The fact that such a large proportion of otherwise reasonably literate adults are getting it wrong (even authors!) is what baffles me, because it's such a simple thing to remember.

It is a common exception, but the English language is an ugly language. Just plane (sic) ugly. I grew up with English so it is reasonably natural, but English is suffering some severe brain damage. Do not even get me started on contranyms or auto-antonyms.

[ebusinesstutor]

I'd post another message in this thread, but I am afraid my grammar, spelling and punctuation would be ripped apart. :0

[QuantumIguana]

The English language is a Rube-Goldberg creation, that is far more complicated than it has to be, but that doesn't make it ugly. Still, if I became dictator, I would standardize the "i before e, except after c, or when sounded as a as in neighbor or weigh" thing (and even then, there are exceptions).

If anyone says "I'm glad you're not the dictator," well, you're going on my list, for when I am the dictator.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's really not hard to remember. None of the personal pronouns (my, his, her, its, ours, yours, theirs) have apostrophes. If you're not tempted to put an apostrophe in "his", there's really no reason why you should be tempted by "its" .

The reason one is tempted by "its" and not by "his" is because there is an "it's" but no hi's, her's, our's, your's, or their's to get confused with.

I don't think it's so much that people can't remember it as that they just write on autopilot what they would say in their heads and don't think about what, specifically, they are writing down as long as there are no obvious misspellings.