David Weber Safehold and Dahak

[pdurrant]

Safehold does seem to be progressing very slowly, but I've still been enjoying it. However, I'm a bit behind, as I won't pay silly prices for the ebooks, and in fact the ebook isn't officially available in the UK yet. So I'm currently waiting for the UK Kindle release of How Firm a Foundation which should be out at the same time as the UK paperback, on 13 September 2012, and hopefully at around £5/$8.

I'll just have to wait until September next year to read Midst Toil and Tribulation, unless TOR's policy in the UK changes before then.

[pwalker8]

I really don't get this indignation over paying the market price for a book. I can understand that some may not have to money to pay and I can understand to some simply don't want to pay. But the indignation that some author might actual want to be paid enough to make a living at writing just puzzles me. Not a whole lot of J.K. Rowlings out there.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I really don't get this indignation over paying the market price for a book. I can understand that some may not have to money to pay and I can understand to some simply don't want to pay. But the indignation that some author might actual want to be paid enough to make a living at writing just puzzles me. Not a whole lot of J.K. Rowlings out there.

The indignation happens when a publisher (& author) might be happy with getting $3 from the sale of a paperback, but want to get $6 from the sale of an ebook.

[DrNefario]

We've invested money in the readers we'd like to recoup. We're getting a copy we can't lend, resell, give away, or even display on a shelf. Why shouldn't we expect to pay less?

And we have options, when we don't want to pay full price for a paperback (and how dare wait for a cheap paperback when it's only a bit more for the hardback?). Amazon will knock some money off, for a start, and then there are bundle deals (3 for 2), used copies, remainders, borrowing.

[leezer3]

Perhaps it's just me, but the way the technological restrictions were setup in Safehold seemed never really to work properly.

Whilst the story itself is well told, IMHO the premise is absolute utter hokum.
We've got a society with a reasonable literacy level, and all the basics in place to produce the more advanced machinery etc. but the religious restrictions stop this dead. Sure, they'd work for a generation or two, but if we look back over our own history, restrictions on knowledge and technological innovation have never worked long-term.
I suppose it'd have probably helped if it didn't start getting rather drawn-out- I do agree with the padding the word-count opinion, as I reckon this could have probably been done (Or at least off the planet and into space-based industry) within three books

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I really don't get this indignation over paying the market price for a book.

It really isn't market price. Market price is the price that a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to sell at, not the arbitrary price that publishers unilaterally set.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I really don't get this indignation over paying the market price for a book.

Ah, but you see, *that* is exactly the point!
"Market price" for Weber's other, better, books is $6.
Weber's Honorverse, War God, and other works have long since sold at sub-paperback $6 for multiformat DRM-free ebooks. His Tor price-fixed and DRM'ed titles sell at Hardcover+ pricing. (And by all reports, at noticeably lower volumes.)

Just because the publisher demands a price doesn't make it "market" price. Especially when the price is fixed (via collusion, in the US) and competitive market forces are blocked.

Here: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl...market%20price

•market price (the price at which buyers and sellers trade the item in an open marketplace)

There is nothing *open* about price fixed markets; those are take it or leave it markets. Well, most of us can leave it quite easily.

Market prices are set via a supply-demand "conversation" between supplier and consumer and the Price Fix Six have blocked that "conversation" by forbidding discounting.

Some people are fine with that and, hey, it's their money.
Me, I chose not to buy anything--in print or e-book, from the six. So I read the library's copies when and if I can get them. No rush.
As I said, the books are readable but far from his best.

As to whether I can afford the price, it turns out I can; for one of his Baen releases I sprung for the $15 eArc without batting an eye: it got me the book three months early plus a copy of the "unedited" oopsie edition.

To the OP I restate my position: EMPIRE FROM THE ASHES is a more fun read that the Safehold series and it costs $6 for the full trilogy. The first volume is free by itself. He *really* wants you to read it.

[bfisher]

Originally Posted by leezer3

Perhaps it's just me, but the way the technological restrictions were setup in Safehold seemed never really to work properly.

Whilst the story itself is well told, IMHO the premise is absolute utter hokum.
We've got a society with a reasonable literacy level, and all the basics in place to produce the more advanced machinery etc. but the religious restrictions stop this dead. Sure, they'd work for a generation or two, but if we look back over our own history, restrictions on knowledge and technological innovation have never worked long-term.
I suppose it'd have probably helped if it didn't start getting rather drawn-out- I do agree with the padding the word-count opinion, as I reckon this could have probably been done (Or at least off the planet and into space-based industry) within three books

I thought it was fairly plausable - organized religions have been fairly effective in the past in supressing progress. A regigious monopoly would be even more able to do that where it had an absolute monopoly on education.

[leezer3]

Originally Posted by bfisher

I thought it was fairly plausable - organized religions have been fairly effective in the past in supressing progress. A regigious monopoly would be even more able to do that where it had an absolute monopoly on education.

Yep, but that was with a basically illiterate peasant based society.
The Safehold society is generally at least semi-literate, and they've clearly rediscovered progress several times in the past (The destruction, laser or was it nukes of the rebel cities whilst the orignal crew were still alive for example), but this was shoved back again
The way I see it, they've got the tools and most of the knowledge, and it really shouldn't take long for progress to reach critical mass.

[pwalker8]

Yes, I understand market price and all that, I just don't understand why some get so emotional about ebooks costing more than they want to pay. Logically, if you look at it from the author's point of view, the vast majority of authors don't actually make a living writing. Most have a day job and write on the side. The rule of thumb that I have seen is the author gets 10% from the sale of a book. Hard figures from specific authors are hard to find, from what I've read, if you manage to sale more than 10,000, you are considered successful. So basically, if you take the price of the ebook, and multiply it by 1000, and that's how much a successful author makes on it. Think about it.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Yes, I understand market price and all that, I just don't understand why some get so emotional about ebooks costing more than they want to pay. Logically, if you look at it from the author's point of view, the vast majority of authors don't actually make a living writing. Most have a day job and write on the side. The rule of thumb that I have seen is the author gets 10% from the sale of a book. Hard figures from specific authors are hard to find, from what I've read, if you manage to sale more than 10,000, you are considered successful. So basically, if you take the price of the ebook, and multiply it by 1000, and that's how much a successful author makes on it. Think about it.

Consider it thought of.

But, just because some *authors* get ripped off by their old-school publishers doesn't mean consumers have to meekly accept getting ripped off themselves by the same middlemen.

Especially now that this new-fangled ebook "fad" has enabled authors to self-publish at least some of their titles and keep the bulk of the revenue and make a decent living writing while still charging *less* than the traditionally-shackled writers. This has changed the contract landscape so some publishers actually pay ebook royalties of as high as 50%... Or even higher.

Times change and consumer attitudes are the *first* to change with them.
Just ask Borders...

[pwalker8]

That's a whole lot of emotion and opinion, but not a whole lot of facts.

I take it that you haven't bothered to do any research into exactly what the break out of expenses is in the publishing industry. The vast majority of books don't sale enough to break even. Publishing just isn't a hugely profitable business.

Just keep in mind that there are two components to market price, the first is what the consumer is willing to pay (that's consumer as a whole, not just you personally) and the second is how much it cost to produce. If the consumer isn't willing to pay at least what it cost to produce, then the producer will stop producing.

Sure, like the music and movie industries, you have a handful of independents who do everything themselves and make a living at it, but not many though. Perhaps at some point in the future, but not yet.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I take it that you haven't bothered to do any research into exactly what the break out of expenses is in the publishing industry.

Actually, I have and I could point you at the appropriate references.
But that's not appropriate to the forum or the thread.

You asked, I answered.
Don't like the answer?
Toodles!

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by leezer3

I suppose it'd have probably helped if it didn't start getting rather drawn-out- I do agree with the padding the word-count opinion, as I reckon this could have probably been done (Or at least off the planet and into space-based industry) within three books

Yep could not agree more. I want humanity to go out and reclaim what was theirs and deal with the Gbaba

[Angst]

I started reading the Safehold series about two months ago. I enjoy the way David Weber delves into the political intricacies of his subjects and situations.

My only complaints are 1) his characters tend to be all black or all white. 2) He will introduce a new character using only their first name, or last name or title, and I may not be able to identify the character by all three components until many pages later.