Sue Grafton: "The universe will come to your aid."

[ApK]

Originally Posted by tompe

then the question is what is best in the long run?

That's going be hard to answer until there has been a long enough run in the current ebook/self-publishing paradigm to judge.
Just a few years ago (in the pre-KDP, etc. era) "Self-publishing" pretty much did equal "Not good enough to get published for real" and "electronic-self-publishing" meant you were writing homoerotic Star Trek fan fiction on usenet.

[DiapDealer]

The fact that traditional publishers are signing successful self-published authors (as well as successful traditionally published authors choosing to start self-publishing) is proof positive that there can be no blanket statements one way or the other.

The only real argument I'm aware of is whether or not there are any absolutes concerning the quality, dedication, success, or skill-level of authors choosing either path. And the answer is, quite simply, no. There are are no absolutes. There are two legitimate paths now. Both are producing successes and failures.

Both also have their trash and their treasure. The ratios of trash to treasure might differ, and have you leaning one direction personally; because as a reader, you have no interest in changing how you go about finding books you want to read—and that's fine. But that personal "leaning" has no bearing on the actual validity of choosing the non-traditional path. The attempt (by some) to completely marginalize the entire self-publishing industry in this day and age can be written off as one of three things: pettiness, dogma or ignorance. I think Sue Grafton might only be afflicted by the latter two. Which means there's still hope for her.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by tompe

The point is that single examples does not say anything about probabilities and so on. I mean people win on lottery all the time but that does not mean that it is rational to buy a lottery ticket.

So I am curious about what the numbers really are.

The founder of Smashwords is quoted saying, “We have less than 50 people who are making more than $50,000 per year. We have a lot who don’t sell a single book.” At the time he had 14,000 authors published on SW.

Of course, this doesn't determine success or "good."

[QuantumIguana]

Each summer in my local park, there's an art fair. All through the park, indie artists set up booths. There's no curator. You can wander through the park, and if you see something you like, you can buy it. I can go to an art museum or gallery and it will be curated, an expert will have selected the works that they thought were best. There's nothing wrong with either model.

I can listen to an indie band or listen to one that signed with a major record label. There's nothing wrong with either.

I can buy my doughnuts from a chain or an independent bakery. There's nothing wrong with either.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Each summer in my local park, there's an art fair. All through the park, indie artists set up booths. There's no curator. You can wander through the park, and if you see something you like, you can buy it. I can go to an art museum or gallery and it will be curated, an expert will have selected the works that they thought were best. There's nothing wrong with either model.

I can listen to an indie band or listen to one that signed with a major record label. There's nothing wrong with either.

I can buy my doughnuts from a chain or an independent bakery. There's nothing wrong with either.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Each summer in my local park, there's an art fair. All through the park, indie artists set up booths. There's no curator. You can wander through the park, and if you see something you like, you can buy it. I can go to an art museum or gallery and it will be curated, an expert will have selected the works that they thought were best. There's nothing wrong with either model.

I can listen to an indie band or listen to one that signed with a major record label. There's nothing wrong with either.

I can buy my doughnuts from a chain or an independent bakery. There's nothing wrong with either.

Well, it takes minutes to see if you like some music. For a book it takes hour often to see if the book was worth reading or not. So I really think there is a fundamental difference here.

[DiapDealer]

For a book it takes hour often to see if the book was worth reading or not.

That's any book. Self-published or traditional. Can't be helped.
However, it only takes minutes (or less) to determine if it's by an author who has absolutely no skills. Put it down, don't buy it, try something else.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, it takes minutes to see if you like some music. For a book it takes hour often to see if the book was worth reading or not. So I really think there is a fundamental difference here.

You are generous with your time. Whether it's trad or indie, I give it about 30 pages. This isn't even 30 minutes for me. For some, I give it the synopsis. For others, they make it two pages. Sure, I've plowed my way through some books fully expecting them to get a plot going and gotten to the end to discover there was no real plot. Sure, I've read books that were reasonable and plotting along only to throw an orgy in there and then attempt to tie up the plot with "it was all about sexual gratification" leaving me muttering words so foul the cat demanded to be let outdoors.

Speaking of other artists, we often listen to "snippets" of Cds around here. There was a piano player who captured our attention one day. We both LOVED the snippet, but the CD was 15 and up. So we were undecided. Then it got picked by one of the internet stations to be "featured." Yay!!! And...there wasn't a song on there we liked. The snippet? I swear. It was the BEST part. Even that song went into long and boring repetition.


Sampling can eat up a lot of time, it is true. But at least now I can do it from the comfort of my living room. I don't really miss standing in bookstores reading a few pages here and there. (I know some do and I'm not knocking it.) I'm just glad there are more ways to sample and find books.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, it takes minutes to see if you like some music. For a book it takes hour often to see if the book was worth reading or not. So I really think there is a fundamental difference here.

I can learn quite a lot about a book in advance. I can look at the cover. If the cover is poor, I pass. I can looks the blurb. If the blurb is filled with typos, or if it doesn't look interesting, I pass. If I'm still interested, I can download the sample. If I lose interest, I stop reading. If I'm still interested by the end of the sample, I buy.

And then there's reviews and recomendations that help me decide if I want to buy the book. I don't have to be the first guinea pig to try the book. I do the same things with traditionally published books. I've never picked up a book from the shelf and said "It's traditionally published, so it has to be good!" There's really no fundamental difference between indie books and any other artistic endeavor. But if you only want to read traditionally published books, don't let me stop you.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Both also have their trash and their treasure. The ratios of trash to treasure might differ, and have you leaning one direction personally; because as a reader, you have no interest in changing how you go about finding books you want to read—and that's fine. But that personal "leaning" has no bearing on the actual validity of choosing the non-traditional path.

The ratios do differ and more importantly, some of the "treasures" one might find on the self-pub path are stuff that one would never find if that option did not exist.

In books as with everything else, one person's trash is another's treasure.

And given that trad-publishers select books based on their ability to sell a *lot* of copies *fast* it is a dead certain fact that a lot of narrow-appeal books that can succeed in the self-pub world would never see the inside of a bookstore in the olden days much less be allowed to stay there long enough to deliver any kind of return to the author.

Trad-publishing is all about mass appeal, much like broadcast TV.
Self-pub *allows* (though it does no subsist solely on) niche content to find a receptive audience.

Defining "success" as a book that generates $50,000 or $50 million in sales is a nearsighted way to evaluate something that might be done more as a labor of love than as a mercenary venture. Expectations matter. And a writer might be aware that his vision has no mass market appeal and be satisfied to touch just one person who "gets" it. That no more makes the work a failure than it makes the author lazy or incompetent.

I would suggest that one of the results of the mainstreaming of ebooks is that mass appeal (or critical acclaim from the establishment) will no longer define quality or success. Success will be determined by the author and the author's expectations. If the author goes in expecting a few hundred sales and gets a few thousand that actually *liked* the book then that book will be a success in his terms regardless of what anybody else thinks.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder and success is in the eye of the creator.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

You are generous with your time. Whether it's trad or indie, I give it about 30 pages. This isn't even 30 minutes for me.

I was not talking about the books that you directly notice are bad. I am talking about books that seems to be good but are structured in a way that they fail in totality. Books you have to finish to see that they are bad. Books that fails in connecting things together in a satisfying ending and totality.

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by tompe

I was not talking about the books that you directly notice are bad. I am talking about books that seems to be good but are structured in a way that they fail in totality. Books you have to finish to see that they are bad. Books that fails in connecting things together in a satisfying ending and totality.

And I've run into some of those that were trad published, too, that I simply couldn't follow. but then, I'm a linear type of girl, and too much head-hopping or time-stream-hopping loses me.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by tompe

I am talking about books that seems to be good but are structured in a way that they fail in totality. Books you have to finish to see that they are bad. Books that fails in connectint things together in a satisfying ending and totality.

I don't quite understand your point. Are you saying that you think you have a better chance of finding books (given that you've enjoyed the early part of the book just fine) whose authors are vastly better at bringing all loose ends to a satisfying conclusion from the traditionally published side of the tracks?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

And I've run into some of those that were trad published, too, that I simply couldn't follow. but then, I'm a linear type of girl, and too much head-hopping or time-stream-hopping loses me.

Of course. But for that time investment I really want to minimize the risk of finishing a bad book that seemed to be a good book for most part of the book. And the kind of problem I am talking about I think are problem that are easy to miss for an author that have book and its world in their head. It is the kind of problem were a good editor really can contribute to make a book "publishable".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't quite understand your point. Are you saying that you think you have a better chance of finding books (given that you've enjoyed the early part of the book just fine) whose authors are vastly better at bringing all loose ends to a satisfying conclusion from the traditionally published side of the tracks?

Yes, definitely. Because enhancing the totality is one of the most important functions that a good editor contributes to.

And I do not read books in a way that I enjoy part of it and that is enough. I enjoy the whole book or I do not enjoy the whole book. I enjoyed a lot of episodes of Battlestar Galactica but the ending made these episodes bad retroactively and I really think the hours spent watching them was totally wasted and I felt cheated since I could have wathed a series that was good instead.

And we also have the case that the totality is OK but it could have been brilliant. Which is also bad since I do not want to read books that are just OK but also that I missed a potentially brilliant book.