Blatantly political rant

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

ive always wondered why we dont hear an outcry from the muslim community as a whole condemning terrorist acts? men voted for womens suffrage. prior to the civil war there were plenty of free people fighting against slavery. germans fought the nazis and helped the jews. during the civil rights era there were many whites speaking out for black rights. there are pleny of examples in history when the oppressor/aggressor stood up for the victim. so why dont we hear anything now? maybe we just arent hearing about it here ...

And maybe they feel that way, but are scared to speak up.

If you live in an area from which terrorists recruit, you might be a bit reluctant to publicly denounce it, lest you become a victim, too.
______
Dennis

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And maybe they feel that way, but are scared to speak up.

If you live in an area from which terrorists recruit, you might be a bit reluctant to publicly denounce it, lest you become a victim, too.
______
Dennis

theres not too much risk here in the states and still nothing ...

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

theres not too much risk here in the states and still nothing ...

Well. when I was living in San Diego, there was a very public denunciation of terrorism from the leader of the local mosque (the big one in the Kearney Mesa area ...).

They made it very clear that no one who murdered should or would receive the support of the Muslim community there. Period.

That the only true jihad was the internal struggle each Muslim faces in adhering to the tenants of the Q'ran, and that murder is not sanctioned and should never be sanctioned. Again ... period.

So .... I guess it depends on whether or not the local leaders feel comfortable enough about reminding their flocks that murder is simply not appropriate. Not in the name of any god.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by Patricia

You are thinking of Thomkin and Bird's 'The Secret Life of Plants.'
This is based on some truly deplorable pseudo-science. Plant do not have a nervous system and cannot feel.

There are some rebuttals here:
http://www.paghat.com/telepathic.html

Perhaps it was, as you say, pseudo-science. There have been many unaccepted discoveries that were later widely accepted as truth, e.g. the flat earth, the earth is the center of the universe. So just because a plant does not have the same methods of feeling as you or I, doesn't mean they are not aware and feeling in some manner. All you have to do is to watch a time lapse video of a plant growing to see that they are aware of both gravity and sun light. I'm not saying they are and like Ricky, I don't often pass up a nice juicy steak just because a cow has a nervous system similar to mine and therefore "feels", but I don't totally discount the possibility of even what we call non-life as not being able to feel.

As I stated before, there are and have been many cultures that believed that the earth herself (itself?) is a living entity. Many other cultures believe in spirits (both good & bad), demons, devils, gods, a God, etc. that are very different to humans and animals as we know them. Are entities unfeeling because they don't have our type of nervous system? Or perhaps you are an unbeliever in any of these, which is contrary to the bulk of humanity.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

He's already stated up thread that he's perfectly willing to change, given a good reason why he should and how he'll benefit if he does.

I feel roughly the same. Try to simply tell me what to do, and I may say "Who the <bleep> are you to tell me that? No!".

Put it to me as "I think you should consider doing it this way. Here's why I think so, and what you'll get from it!", I'm perfectly happy to listen, and if it makes sense to me, I'm likely to say "You're absolutely right! That is a better alternative. Thanks for pointing it out to me!"

The carrot almost always works better than the stick, and wearing an air of moral superiority is guaranteed to rub people the wrong way, even if you are right. (And perhaps especially if you're right... )
______
Dennis

When I was very young, I did what I was told to do. Later in life, when someone told me to do something, I rebelled and did not do what I was told. Eventually I realized that I was being controlled in the second case as much as I was in the first case. That when I determined to make up my own mind and what anyone told me to do did not "force" me in either direction.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

So .... I guess it depends on whether or not the local leaders feel comfortable enough about reminding their flocks that murder is simply not appropriate. Not in the name of any god.

And that comfort level will depend upon opinions and attitudes within their flock. I shouldn't be surprised if there were Muslims in the US who don't support terrorism, but would like to see the sort of Islamic state the terrorists claim to advocate become a reality.

I saw one very interesting analysis which stated that what most terrorists are really interested in is the act of causing terror. The cause which they espouse merely provides the means of creating terror, and a justification they can use to tell themselves it's okay. The analyst felt that a terrorist could be "turned" to work for the opposite side with appropriate psychiatric supervision. Just give them the means to create bigger bombs and cause more terror, along with an equivalent rationalization for doing so, and you've got yourself a new recruit...
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And that comfort level will depend upon opinions and attitudes within their flock. I shouldn't be surprised if there were Muslims in the US who don't support terrorism, but would like to see the sort of Islamic state the terrorists claim to advocate become a reality.
______
Dennis

I suppose I wouldn't be surprised either. However, most of the Muslims I know are a lot like the Christians I know ... not very right wing. They seem to be in the "you do your thing and I'll do mine" category.

Those sorts of people don't want to see a theocracy of any kind take hold here in the States. My view is ... hey, if you want to live in a Muslim theocracy ... move to Saudi Arabia ... its just sitting there waiting for you.

I think that terrorists, in general, are just looking for a justification to commit murder. Eric Rudolph did it in the name of Christianity (sure ... gives the Christian cause a really nice reputation), and the 9/11 whackos did it in the name of Islam (because, of course ... they're expecting virgins in heaven ... ummm .... riiiiiight).

I love the cartoon I saw in one magazine (can't remember which one it was) where the dead Muslim terrorist is ushered into the room containing his 70 virgins ... only to see the room is filled with 70 pimply faced teenaged boys playing computer games and swigging down Coke.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by slayda

When I was very young, I did what I was told to do. Later in life, when someone told me to do something, I rebelled and did not do what I was told. Eventually I realized that I was being controlled in the second case as much as I was in the first case. That when I determined to make up my own mind and what anyone told me to do did not "force" me in either direction.

Well put-- and I think it relates to the "religious" nature of some of the underlying assumptions Dennis has been pointing out, as well.

In the case of including the cost of pollution and/or pollution cleanup in the consumer product, it's true that no competitor wants to go first. This is, in my opinion, one of the good uses of government regulation-- to protect the interests of the producers who want to "do the right thing."

How do we ever know when a threat is serious enough to warrant regulation? Excellent question-- I believe sometimes such regulation is justified, and sometimes not. Deciding where to draw that line is something it seems to me requires an informed and involved citizenry.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I suppose I wouldn't be surprised either. However, most of the Muslims I know are a lot like the Christians I know ... not very right wing. They seem to be in the "you do your thing and I'll do mine" category.

That sort of tolerance is what we hope for, at least.

I get grimly amused by some of the fundamentalists who want to impose their idea of right behavior on others in the name of God. As I read the bible, Jesus made it pretty explicit that God made the rules, and He reserves the right to judge and punish. Folks claiming to act in His name may get an unpleasant surprise when they see Him. "You did what in my name? No heaven for you, pal. Downstairs!"

Those sorts of people don't want to see a theocracy of any kind take hold here in the States. My view is ... hey, if you want to live in a Muslim theocracy ... move to Saudi Arabia ... its just sitting there waiting for you.

If they can deal with the Wahabi strain practiced there.

I think that terrorists, in general, are just looking for a justification to commit murder. Eric Rudolph did it in the name of Christianity (sure ... gives the Christian cause a really nice reputation), and the 9/11 whackos did it in the name of Islam (because, of course ... they're expecting virgins in heaven ... ummm .... riiiiiight).

I concur, though the question is where the desire to commit murder comes from.

I love the cartoon I saw in one magazine (can't remember which one it was) where the dead Muslim terrorist is ushered into the room containing his 70 virgins ... only to see the room is filled with 70 pimply faced teenaged boys playing computer games and swigging down Coke.

Well, some of them may like boys...

The Onion had a lovely piece back when in which the hijackers who took down the WTC towers got to the next life, and didn't get the response they expected. "Oh, yeah, Satan get's 'em next, and God knows what he has in mind!", comments a demon busily torturing one terrorist.

I thought of the Niven/Pournelle novel, _Inferno_, full of damned souls whose exit from Hell was blocked by their own inability to admit they'd been wrong in doing what got them put there in the first place.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Well put-- and I think it relates to the "religious" nature of some of the underlying assumptions Dennis has been pointing out, as well.

It does indeed. A lot of these things stem from unconscious assumptions picked up by osmosis as a child from the adults around us. They become internalized and matters of reflex.

As an example, I was once involved with a woman who made life interesting. Nothing ever got settled. Any time she got mad at me, it would provoke an hours long tirade of screaming, in which everything I had ever done to upset her was thrown in my face. Never mind that we had usually argued about it and supposedly settled it previously. I met her parents, and decided that was the sort of relationship her mother had with her father. At an early age, she internalized it as "Oh! That's how you do it!", and followed the practice with her own boyfriends/husbands when she grew up.

My parents loved me and did their best to raise me. I discovered when I got older and moved away from home that some of what they taught me was wrong, such as my father's casual racism. I didn't blame them for it: they weren't lying, and sincerely believed what they said. They were simply passing along stuff that someone they trusted had taught them, and had never been in a position to learn it wasn't true.

Your whole concept of who you are and how you fit into the world stems from such sources, and influences what you feel and believe.

In the case of including the cost of pollution and/or pollution cleanup in the consumer product, it's true that no competitor wants to go first. This is, in my opinion, one of the good uses of government regulation-- to protect the interests of the producers who want to "do the right thing."

I concur, and see it as a legitimate function of government

How do we ever know when a threat is serious enough to warrant regulation? Excellent question-- I believe sometimes such regulation is justified, and sometimes not. Deciding where to draw that line is something it seems to me requires an informed and involved citizenry.

Yes, and it's one of the main political questions at any time. I see variants of the underlying political issues locally, like protests over proposed new electrical generation facilities. Everyone knows we need them. No one wants one near them...
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It does indeed. A lot of these things stem from unconscious assumptions picked up by osmosis as a child from the adults around us. They become internalized and matters of reflex.

As an example, I was once involved with a woman who made life interesting. Nothing ever got settled. Any time she got mad at me, it would provoke an hours long tirade of screaming, in which everything I had ever done to upset her was thrown in my face. Never mind that we had usually argued about it and supposedly settled it previously. I met her parents, and decided that was the sort of relationship her mother had with her father. At an early age, she internalized it as "Oh! That's how you do it!", and followed the practice with her own boyfriends/husbands when she grew up.

My parents loved me and did their best to raise me. I discovered when I got older and moved away from home that some of what they taught me was wrong, such as my father's casual racism. I didn't blame them for it: they weren't lying, and sincerely believed what they said. They were simply passing along stuff that someone they trusted had taught them, and had never been in a position to learn it wasn't true.

Your whole concept of who you are and how you fit into the world stems from such sources, and influences what you feel and believe.


I concur, and see it as a legitimate function of government


Yes, and it's one of the main political questions at any time. I see variants of the underlying political issues locally, like protests over proposed new electrical generation facilities. Everyone knows we need them. No one wants one near them...
______
Dennis

My biological father could be described that way as well. Of course, I saw very little of him growing up. He left when I was about two, and I seldom saw him after that.

However ... there was one time I was in college that he popped by Los Angeles to see me. We were in a store or a restaurant or something ... and I opened my wallet. In my wallet, I had pictures of some of my friends from school. One was a guy (nicknamed "Killer") who just happened to be black.

So, my father asks me who "that person" is ... and I said "Oh, that's Killer. I just love Killer."

Now, by "love" I meant love as in "I love all my friends." Killer was coo coo for the girl who lived two doors down from me in the dorm. But my father didn't ask and I didn't offer any additional information.

So, my father goes back to his home, and calls my mother to ask what the hell she was doing raising a daughter who would "screw a n*gger." Now, as it happened I was still a virgin at that point ... and my mother knew that. She also knew that Killer was one of my best buddies.

But, did she tell my father that?? Oh no, my mother said, "Oh, I'm quite certain she isn't screwing any [black men] now. She always tells me about everyone she screws, and I'm certain she's screwing a Chinaman at the moment." And then she hung up on him.

I laughed so hard when my mother told me about that, I damn near peed my panties.

Years later, when I was dating a gentleman of Japanese ancestry, my father kept reminding me that the Japanese had killed my uncle in WWII. OK, but my boyfriend was Hawaiian, and I think his family left Japan in like his great grandfather's generation or something.

My mother, on the other hand, kept telling me that Japanese/Caucasian children were sooooo cute, and couldn't I possibly get pregnant before the two of us broke up??

Talk about being raised listening to both sides of the debate ....

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Well. when I was living in San Diego, there was a very public denunciation of terrorism from the leader of the local mosque (the big one in the Kearney Mesa area ...).

They made it very clear that no one who murdered should or would receive the support of the Muslim community there. Period.

That the only true jihad was the internal struggle each Muslim faces in adhering to the tenants of the Q'ran, and that murder is not sanctioned and should never be sanctioned. Again ... period.

So .... I guess it depends on whether or not the local leaders feel comfortable enough about reminding their flocks that murder is simply not appropriate. Not in the name of any god.

its a shame there isnt more of that out there. on single denunciation isnt going to make much of a statement though. it would be nice to see it en mass and more than just once by an isolated group. and the whole "fearing for my safety" argument doesnt really hold any water in my opinion.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

its a shame there isnt more of that out there. on single denunciation isnt going to make much of a statement though. it would be nice to see it en mass and more than just once by an isolated group. and the whole "fearing for my safety" argument doesnt really hold any water in my opinion.

Well, keep in mind, it's about as difficult as getting all of the Christians in the world to make one pronouncement en masse. It isn't like the Muslims have a central figure who dictates all. It's a lot more like all the different denominations of Christianity ... who would be the person to command that the position be made clear??

And, I think that the central mosque in the sixth largest city in the US is not exactly an isolated group. However, the big problem --as I see it anyway -- is that there is this silent majority in almost every group. We just want to live and let live ... but we keep our mouths shut on most topics because we'd rather not get hammered down. I mean ... it's not that I fear for my life, but I gave up arguing with the religious right a loooong time ago. It was like arguing with a rock .... a big ol' unthinking rock.

I have a sneaking feeling that my moderate (and some liberal) Muslim friends are in much the same position.

You know ... when the Taliban blew up those beautiful statues of Buddha in Afganistan a few years ago, my heart just broke. Not because it was a statue of Buddha ... we don't perceive Buddha as embodied in a piece of rock, and it's impossible to dishonor Buddha just by blowing up a piece of rock, that's just laughable. But, what made me sad was that the Taliban was trying to erase a part of the history of the Afgan people ... those statues were a valuable piece of the history of art in Afganistan. It's like blowing up the pyramids (because they were built for god-kings and are therefore un-Islamic). Where would be the sense in that??

I was sitting with a friend/client who happened to be Muslim, at the time all this Taliban desecration was going on .... and we started going through a list of all the beautiful pieces of art and architecture that the Muslims or the Christians could probably justify destroying in the name of "religion."

Stonehenge .... the Temple of Rameses .... the Alcazar in Granada ... the Pyramids ... the Acropolis ... the Colosseum ... hey ... pick a landmark and blow it up folks ... it's not "Muslim" ... it's not "Christian."

Oh .... spare me. Honestly, there are times I could happily bitch slap some of these people. Of course, they'd likely blow me up ... but still.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I thought of the Niven/Pournelle novel, _Inferno_, full of damned souls whose exit from Hell was blocked by their own inability to admit they'd been wrong in doing what got them put there in the first place.
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Dennis

Bossy* as God... I like that....(No offense DM, my whimsey pops up at the oddest times...)


* Book - They'd Rather Be Right, Mark Clifton, Et.Al. - Hugo 1957, e-book on Fictionwise.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It does indeed. A lot of these things stem from unconscious assumptions picked up by osmosis as a child from the adults around us. They become internalized and matters of reflex.

...

Your whole concept of who you are and how you fit into the world stems from such sources, and influences what you feel and believe.
______
Dennis

I guess that's why I didn't provide you any new information. You see, at 14 I stripped ship and did my own analysis of my assumtions and tries to set my own ethos, in kind of a Descartes fashion....I have not been unhappy with the result thereafter...