Apple missed the boat with the iPhone?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think video conferencing can be added by a third party app, because it depends on hardware which the iPhone doesn't have - a camera pointing towards the user.

Agreed, and I realized that after the fact. Third party software might allow me to watch videos, but participation in video conferences would require hardware to allow me to join in video as well as audio.

I am curious, however: do you ever actually use a smartphone to participate in a video conference? I'm having a problem imagining wanting to do that, or being happy with the experience if I could.
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Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I am one of the unlucky few who have *not* found Apple products to be intuitive. I've played with Mac computers, many times throughout the years and they just confuse me. I can't get anything done.

I finally purchased an iPod last year and had to take a class at the Apple store because I couldn't figure some basic things out. I recently purchased an iPod for Dummies book because I still find out how to do things by accident and wanted to know what else I've been missing. If I can find another Rio Carbon at a good price, I'm going back.

Maybe, if I'd never worked with DOS or Windows it wouldn't be so hard for me. It's like learning a new language.

The reason I haven't gotten into many Apple products is that there seems to be very little room for user adustments ... both in their hardware and their software. Some people argue that you don't mess with "perfection" ... but perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I prefer to be able to mod things to the nth degree ... and whenever I have gone to the Apple store (if I happen to be anywhere near an Apple store), and asked about how easy it is to get parts if I want to get into the guts of the thing and mod it, they look at me like I'm an alien.

Me too .... I started with DOS, and I still pop back behind Windows whenever I feel the need. That happens less and less ... but sometimes you do what you gotta do.

I guess Apple products are (to me) what a nice car with the hood welded shut would be to a car nut. Yes, it's pretty, and sure I can drive it ... but if I can't play with the engine ... what good is it??

[talaivan]

For heaven's sake, the Mac OS is BSD Unix with a shell running on top of it -- you have access to everything through the terminal. Yes, it's complicated, but so is Windows. The notion that a Mac is a car with its hood welded shut is just silly.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by talaivan

For heaven's sake, the Mac OS is BSD Unix with a shell running on top of it -- you have access to everything through the terminal. Yes, it's complicated, but so is Windows. The notion that a Mac is a car with its hood welded shut is just silly.

It is now. Remember Mac OS9 and earlier where it didn't have a command line?

It's not impossible to customize a Mac, in hardware or software. But Apple has done their best to remove the necessity for doing so, by making things "just work" in what they hope is an intuitive manner for users.

But if you want to hack the hardware, it will be relatively more expensive to get the parts, and if you want to hack the interface you may wind up in the murky depths of X-Windows.

Apple had good reasons for shifting to a *nix derived OS, and even better ones in terms of support in trying to make it unnecessary for people to drop to the OS level.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Me too .... I started with DOS, and I still pop back behind Windows whenever I feel the need. That happens less and less ... but sometimes you do what you gotta do.

I had a Unix box at home before I got an MS-DOS PC, and always found the DOS implementation of concepts denied from Unix (tree-structured directories, I/O redirection, pipes) to be quirky, and COMMAND.COM to be brain dead.

But I still have some old DOS software, and still use a command line a good idea, and have a variety of things installed to enhance command line usage.
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Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by talaivan

For heaven's sake, the Mac OS is BSD Unix with a shell running on top of it -- you have access to everything through the terminal. Yes, it's complicated, but so is Windows. The notion that a Mac is a car with its hood welded shut is just silly.

Well ... perhaps I got that idea because you can't go into most electronics stores and purchase Apple parts. Maybe they are easier to come by than I thought ... I just haven't noticed a lot of Apple PC users tinkering with the insides of their computers. Because ... it was the hardware that I was talking about more than the software with that analogy .... although, do they have a lot of programs out there that let you mess with the OS and default settings??

Like I said ... I got sucked into building my own computers ages ago ... and Apple just wasn't a company that really encouraged that with their products. So, to me ... it's still a pretty car with the hood welded shut ... silly or not.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Well ... perhaps I got that idea because you can't go into most electronics stores and purchase Apple parts. Maybe they are easier to come by than I thought ...

You can get them, but because Apple has always had a determined proprietary streak, they will cost more then the corresponding parts for a PC.

I just haven't noticed a lot of Apple PC users tinkering with the insides of their computers. Because ... it was the hardware that I was talking about more than the software with that analogy

The market Apple is aiming at generally isn't interested in hacking the hardware, so no surprise.

.... although, do they have a lot of programs out there that let you mess with the OS and default settings??

Depending upon what you want to do, thre may be no need to install programs to do that.

As mentioned, OS/X uses a modified BSD Unix core, and installs the Gnu utilities to round things out. *nix provides lots of ways to tweak the way the OS works, though you may need to get down and dirty with config files to do it.

The UI is based on X-Windows with (I believe) the KDE widget set. Lots of ways to customize that, too, without having to install third party software.

(And for that matter, a lot of the customization possible on Windows doesn't actually require third party tools. But third party tools exist because much of it involves editing the Windows registry, and the tools provide a simple GUI to specify what you want to change and make the registry edits for you.)
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Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

You can get them, but because Apple has always had a determined proprietary streak, they will cost more then the corresponding parts for a PC.


The market Apple is aiming at generally isn't interested in hacking the hardware, so no surprise.


Depending upon what you want to do, thre may be no need to install programs to do that.

As mentioned, OS/X uses a modified BSD Unix core, and installs the Gnu utilities to round things out. *nix provides lots of ways to tweak the way the OS works, though you may need to get down and dirty with config files to do it.

The UI is based on X-Windows with (I believe) the KDE widget set. Lots of ways to customize that, too, without having to install third party software.

(And for that matter, a lot of the customization possible on Windows doesn't actually require third party tools. But third party tools exist because much of it involves editing the Windows registry, and the tools provide a simple GUI to specify what you want to change and make the registry edits for you.)
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Dennis

And ... that's probably where I got the idea. I just haven't seen many Apple owners in the over-clockers groups. Maybe some day ... and maybe someday people will be able to build an "Apple" product from scratch for less than it costs in the store ... but I sort of doubt it.

I guess I'm the only person who thinks that Apple exercises way too much control over what end users can do with its products. It still bothers me that you have to go through so many hoops just to change a battery on your iPod. That's another pretty car with hood welded shut ... that I actually own.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

And ... that's probably where I got the idea. I just haven't seen many Apple owners in the over-clockers groups.

I haven't looked, but I'm not sure it's possible to overclock a Mac.

Whether it's possible on a PC depends on the CPU and motherboard. The ASUS MB I have has overclocking up to 30% as a BIOS setting, with greater levels possible if you feel like manually specifying core voltages and front side bus speeds.

Other Mobos deliberately lock things down so you can't do that.

Maybe some day ... and maybe someday people will be able to build an "Apple" product from scratch for less than it costs in the store ... but I sort of doubt it.

Don't hold your breath.

I guess I'm the only person who thinks that Apple exercises way too much control over what end users can do with its products. It still bothers me that you have to go through so many hoops just to change a battery on your iPod. That's another pretty car with hood welded shut ... that I actually own.

I think Apple exercises more control than I'm happy with, too. But I can see reasons why they do it, rooted in service and support requirements. And as mentioned, the market Apple aims at isn't generally interested in trying to do that.

I'm not an Apple customer, and the ones they have are happy with what Apple gives them.
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Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I haven't looked, but I'm not sure it's possible to overclock a Mac.

Whether it's possible on a PC depends on the CPU and motherboard. The ASUS MB I have has overclocking up to 30% as a BIOS setting, with greater levels possible if you feel like manually specifying core voltages and front side bus speeds.

Other Mobos deliberately lock things down so you can't do that.


Don't hold your breath.


I think Apple exercises more control than I'm happy with, too. But I can see reasons why they do it, rooted in service and support requirements. And as mentioned, the market Apple aims at isn't generally interested in trying to do that.

I'm not an Apple customer, and the ones they have are happy with what Apple gives them.
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Dennis

You will find no quibble from me on any of those points .... it's talaivan who seems to think that there are no limits to what can be done with or to Apple products.

The death grip of control (for whatever the valid reasons) just leaves me a little cold towards their products ... however "pretty," "sexy," or "cool."

[stustaff]

The whole modding thing is like complaining that you cant cook your own meal in a restaurant!
If you want to do that go to a grocery store and buy ingredients and make it in your kitchen.

Apple create or try too (they arent perfect) a product which does not need to be taken apart to serve its intended purpose!
Its like complaining that you cant take your Sony TV apart and add another HDMI port!

Oh and someone asked earlier why was I 'coming down' on harry? it wasnt intended that way it was just genuinely a question as to why the missing features about the iphone(none of which affect its ability to use for reading books) where worthy of posting? when many other phones also have missing features but dont get a similiar post from Harry. just really wondered why the iphone gets picked out?

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by stustaff

The whole modding thing is like complaining that you cant cook your own meal in a restaurant!
If you want to do that go to a grocery store and buy ingredients and make it in your kitchen.

Well ... no it's not. It's more like explaining to someone (or trying to) that you don't go to restaurants because they don't cook as well as you do in your own home.

As far as complaining ... it would be the same if some restaurant had a monopoly on sugar and you couldn't get any sweets at all unless you ate at that particular restaurant.

Originally Posted by stustaff

Apple create or try too (they arent perfect) a product which does not need to be taken apart to serve its intended purpose!
Its like complaining that you cant take your Sony TV apart and add another HDMI port!

Again, not quite. I realize that Apple products do not "need" to be taken apart .... "if" they have everything you need in that product. I've never actually seen an Apple product that entirely met all of my needs. Not even the iPod ... which I would change if I could. So, I don't buy much in the way of Apple products.

And .. .again your analogy is a little off. I probably could add another HDMI port to my Sony TV if I wanted to ... but if I needed more ports, I would look for a TV that had more .. and not buy the Sony in the first place. Sort of like I don't generally buy Apple products because they don't have what I need.

Originally Posted by stustaff

Oh and someone asked earlier why was I 'coming down' on harry? it wasnt intended that way it was just genuinely a question as to why the missing features about the iphone(none of which affect its ability to use for reading books) where worthy of posting? when many other phones also have missing features but dont get a similiar post from Harry. just really wondered why the iphone gets picked out?

I don't know. I'm not buying the iPhone because, like so many Apple products, it does not meet my needs. They are very pretty those iPhones ... but do not meet my needs. I think it would be profoundly idiotic of me to purchase any device that did not work the way I wanted it to work ... just for the "cool" factor.

[hidari]

THat was me that made the defence of Harry. One of my friends just bought an iphone here in Japan. Yes .. They look Kool... As all Apple products "must" look cool. And Like the Ipod heaps of people will buy them whether they are good or not.

Yes, Apple makes good products, but so do loads of companies.

Originally Posted by stustaff

The whole modding thing is like complaining that you cant cook your own meal in a restaurant!
If you want to do that go to a grocery store and buy ingredients and make it in your kitchen.

Apple create or try too (they arent perfect) a product which does not need to be taken apart to serve its intended purpose!
Its like complaining that you cant take your Sony TV apart and add another HDMI port!

Oh and someone asked earlier why was I 'coming down' on harry? it wasnt intended that way it was just genuinely a question as to why the missing features about the iphone(none of which affect its ability to use for reading books) where worthy of posting? when many other phones also have missing features but dont get a similiar post from Harry. just really wondered why the iphone gets picked out?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by stustaff

Apple create or try too (they arent perfect) a product which does not need to be taken apart to serve its intended purpose!

No personal computer normally needs to be taken apart to serve its intended purpose. Some folks just like to, to take the device beyond it's designed limits. "I've got my core duo box overclocked to run at 5ghz! Why? Because I can!"

Oh and someone asked earlier why was I 'coming down' on harry? it wasnt intended that way it was just genuinely a question as to why the missing features about the iphone(none of which affect its ability to use for reading books) where worthy of posting? when many other phones also have missing features but dont get a similiar post from Harry. just really wondered why the iphone gets picked out?

Why not? The iPhone is a hot device, and the new model release is a very high profile launch that precipitated a feeding frenzy among folks interested in it.

And it's specifically intended to be more attractive than the original to the corporate market. Harry listed a set of features that aren't present, which he feels are requirements for a device used in a corporate setting. I think his attitude is roughly, "If Apple is really aiming this at the corporate market, they missed. Here's why."

His list of missing features is

* No MMS messaging.
* No video recording.
* No forward-facing camera for video conferencing.
* No stereo bluetooth connection.

I personally can't imagine trying to participate in a video conference on a smartphone, and aren't especially interested in a phone with a camera of any sort built in.

But lack of MMS messaging and Bluetooth are curious.
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Dennis

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And it's specifically intended to be more attractive than the original to the corporate market. Harry listed a set of features that aren't present, which he feels are requirements for a device used in a corporate setting. I think his attitude is roughly, "If Apple is really aiming this at the corporate market, they missed. Here's why."

His list of missing features is


I personally can't imagine trying to participate in a video conference on a smartphone, and aren't especially interested in a phone with a camera of any sort built in.

But lack of MMS messaging and Bluetooth are curious.
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Dennis

Because businesses want their staff sending photo messages and listening to music on stereo bluetooth headsets?(remember it does have bluetooth and can connect to car stereos headsets for talking.)

None of the things quoted are a missing for a business! imo of course.

Idari and RickyMaveety I agree with you both! but Apple dont make a product for those people! my point is why complain about what you cant do on a device that isnt meant to do that?

My sony phone doesnt have a multitouch screen! my toaster doesnt boil water! my TV isnt HIDEF and I cant alter it myself. I want more memory in my Creative Zen player but it isnt user replacable!

etc etc etc

With apple in particular people complain that the apple cant do this or that... why? why dont they just buy something else then? why post on msg boards etc?

Apple are popular? why? good advertising and good products! but maybe not good for everyone... BUT why dont those people go elswhere? why do they feel the need to state there annoyance so avidly?

Would this thread be so long if it was about the fact that the ASUS eepc cant be overclocked and doesnt have enough USB ports? for example.