‘There will be no more professional writers in the future’

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by LuvReadin

Correct, and people (including companies supposedly soliciting for proofreaders or editors) do try to do that! I suspect consistency is of very little concern to them.

Most professional editors I know will not do a sample edit of more than a very few pages and will not (knowingly) do a complete chapter largely because of these efforts to get free editing. Many also will not provide a free sample edit.

If an editor thinks that is what a publisher/author is doing, the editor often posts a note on the professional forums alerting colleagues to the scam.

[Scott Nicholson]

Well, we don't need to pay people to "make culture" anymore, because we are all doing that collectively, all the time, on the Internet for free. Get a job, Whiny Writer Elite.

Having been one of those who "jumped the publishing hurdle" and now self-publish, I can share my experience, which certainly isn't universal, but pretty similar to a handful of authors I know.

Six midlist paperbacks in New York=no career, out of print, lose your rights, nobody to back you, you do your own promotion, book signings, marketing, and with luck something weird happens and you catch fire and "somebody up there" decides to really give you a push into stardom (usually your greedy agent). This happens so rarely as to be incredibly remarkable--Jim Butcher is about the only one I can think of at the moment, maybe Charlaine Harris, but I don't get out much.

In publishing, where you start out is almost always where you finish. The advance determines your entire career, determines your print run, because then you have "numbers" that publishers judge you by forever (the reason many writers get dropped after two or three books.) The idea that readers chose the old bestseller list is hilarious--those things were printed weeks ahead of time, based on how many copies the publishers were shipping to stores. Advance determines print run determines how many copies in store determines how many you sell (usually--there are exceptions like Snooki's book, which even a marketing blitz couldn't salvage).

In self-publishing, you can start anywhere, and most of it is up to you, not other people. You get most of the money instead of 6 or 8 or 10 percent. If you're lucky enough to have a lot of books, they are all reaching readers for you at all times, instead of one a year and then vanishing. Your book sales can rise and fall in natural plateaus.

How much does having had a publisher help you find a new audience? Almost zero. Hardly any of the people who buy my ebooks have ever heard of me from my NY days. Same for most digital authors I know. So no one can credit NY for "doing all the work" and that now I'm riding coattails. NY wouldn't even give me my rights back (despite my offering money) and essentially cost me thousands, maybe tens of thousands of dollars. It could be that getting published was the biggest mistake I ever made, although I did learn to treat my writing professionally from that experience.

And, without exception, every single author I know who published in NY and now is self-publishing is making more money and reaching more readers and is much happier--and most of them are desperately trying to pry their old books away from publishers, not give MORE to them.

Now, that doesn't address the quality issue, and most readers could care less how much the author makes or who published it, they just want a good book--there are certainly some great authors who couldn't get a NY deal, and lousy authors who sold bucketloads in hardcover. And, yes, the flood of new books is overwhelming. I think stratification is coming soon but it will be a turbulent, wild, fun couple of years. You can hardly blame any writer for giving the roulette wheel a spin. In fact, the "worst" writers are often the ones most confident of their abilities, never being self-aware enough to improve. Sort of like the drunk who thinks he's the most qualified to drive everyone home.

All I can say is I am glad I was here when it happened, both as a writer and a reader!

[LuvReadin]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Most professional editors I know will not do a sample edit of more than a very few pages and will not (knowingly) do a complete chapter largely because of these efforts to get free editing. Many also will not provide a free sample edit.

Absolutely! It's one thing to do a test (although IMO, tests aren't actually as good a reflection of someone's ability as a proper piece of work); it's quite another to do a sample for nothing.

Originally Posted by rhadin

If an editor thinks that is what a publisher/author is doing, the editor often posts a note on the professional forums alerting colleagues to the scam.

Which is useful, but obviously only to members. Having said that, most freelance editors usually have some sort of informal network at least, so it often doesn't take very long to find out if someone in the same field has been offered the same 'sample'.

[twobob]

Okay. Read it all.
Warning: I tend to use the indefinite 'You' and now-dated meaning of 'He' a lot in my rants. Please: Don't take this as direct reference to anyone. Only on a "Writers" thread would I think to preface my mumblings with such caveats. So go easy on me.


This thread could be simply be called "Forces of Capitalism" and my answer could be called "How to annoy artists and marginalise people"; that said dear reader let's drift on... Oh and "No," I couldn't afford a proof-reader, Editor, nor do I hold a BA Engs.

The Gist:
Coming from a musical background this all sounds remarkably familiar.

Floods of amateurs; no quality control; no upfront deals anymore; low royalties and just a few making money where 1000's are starving for their art.

Look at all art, not just writing when you consider the decline of the artist.

"Forces of Capitalism". Bummer. Either move to a politically-marginalised part of the world or deal with where you live.

I shall not prevaricate about the shrubbery, either write War and Peace and be prepared to run down the street naked promoting it or accept that someone else will.
Probably for less cash. Bah.

Alternately choose popular genres, I hear lo-brow porn wrapped up as 'arty' chase-games is getting good coin. Hugh Heff's not getting any younger either perhaps there is an opening for an all-new 'Johan Collins' or 'Jimmy Cooper' but somehow I doubt it.

Either sell-out or accept the chance that the whole world won't unconditionally love what you do anymore. Digital media has made art cheap, it's reality. For my part I refused to go 'Jive Bunny, C'mon!' and I live with the very real consequences of this every day.

Zero sympathy from me. Sorry. I will happily line up against the wall when you are King.
Please forward all disgruntled replies to David.Cameron with the Heading
"BACK UK ART AS AN EXPORT!!!" here https://email.number10.gov.uk/Contact.aspx

It won't change anything, nor will you get paid, but at least someone will definitely read it. : )

* HAPPY FACE *

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Don't mince words, twobob, tell us what you really think.

[twobob]

Originally Posted by Scott Nicholson

... The idea that readers chose the old bestseller list is hilarious--those things were printed weeks ahead of time, based on how many copies the publishers were shipping to stores...

I always enjoyed the Shipped versus Sold thing.

Gold and Platinums work just the same (or fail to work)

One of my faves. "Sold, Shipped, What's the Diff? : About 2 million albums, in the case of 'The Lion King,' pointing up the disparity between industry's sales tally and SoundScan's."

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-...83_1_lion-king

I do love a good numerical on-paper success, smells like victory marketing

[twobob]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

There will always be a need for "professional writers," those employed by another party to write, and especially writers who know more about a particular field of expertise, or have access to the insiders in that field.

That more or less sums it up. There just won't be many of them and as time goes on the numerical pressure of the global population will make it look a lot smaller. This is the way of things.

"Babylon 5: A Late Delivery from Avalon (#3.13)" (1996)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0517617/

Marcus Cole: I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.

^ this. : )

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

If you get away from fiction, yes, that can be very different. The most difficult editing jobs - we are in the middle of several now - are for annual reports for major public corporations - the financial reports in particular. The figures have to be exact, all director and senior management reports have to vetted from both a legal and an investor viewpoint. We have to carry much higher and more comprehensive insurance as an error - even if the client signs off on it - can result in a major lawsuit. That sort of editing can often go well over twenty-five, even thirty-five thousand dollars. Editing a novel, by comparison, is simplicity.

I thought the guy who mentioned the $10,000 was discussing copyediting for fiction/general trade books, not specialized material. That's why I think the amount is outlandish.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by twobob

That more or less sums it up. There just won't be many of them and as time goes on the numerical pressure of the global population will make it look a lot smaller. This is the way of things.

Even that is hard to predict: As writers and writing outlets diversify to encompass more specialty markets not profitable in the past, we could see a veritable "glut" of writing experts on everything from 20th century fashions to Star Wars comic books. Most likely, the salaries for most of them will be minimal, prompting those writers to work at other jobs... or maybe to write for multiple outlets at the same time to make ends meet.

Or maybe some other form of advertising will be constructed around these writers and their online work, allowing ads to pay them (more like the television model).

In terms of entertainment writers (like me), I do think a way to protect content and provide equitable payment is a possibility; but the web has so much baggage at the moment that developing that model, even if we knew what it was, would take time. I expect it to happen within my lifetime (assuming there isn't a Metrobus grille out there with my name on it), but whether I'll still be writing at that point is anyone's guess. In fact, I may stop writing until it happens, then pick it back up.

[twobob]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

In fact, I may stop writing until it happens, then pick it back up.

Welcome to the 'perhaps I'll just retire until then' club from this semi-retired market-disgruntled long-time artist.

Your point 'we could see a veritable "glut" of writing experts' was good one however my original point that I don't see these "experts" as experts at all.
Certainly not in my chosen field of creative endeavour. Perhaps it doesn't apply to professional writing. If not, then just ignore me, what do I know?

I can see how the niches could expand and be filled by those willing to get a BA Days of Our Lives or indeed a PhDarkSide.

However in the audio arts: The vast majority of the nu-breed are a preset-shoulder-standing 'Johnny-come-lately' crew; driven seemingly by some vision of a mythical gravy train dripping with groupies and riders that makes 5 different types of meat. I loves them but I don't loves their chances. Green fruit ripe for the picking.

Who actually end up with nothing. Literally. spat out by someone with less ethics and more experience than them. No rights, no money, no recourse.

To be fair I am happy with the treatment, plaudits and rewards I received but we were discussing the future and I don't like the smell of it.
It's an opinion. So shoot me.

Back on topic. Market forces reduce people and their efforts to nothing more than the bottom line.

When "Lives Works" and "Work Lives" become a commodity the only winner is the bank.

Bring the revolution!!! I'll be making a tea if you need anything.

[sabredog]

Ewan Morrison sounds as if he lives in a bubble of his own making, looking at everything with his owned warped sense of reality.

Some more dissections of another of his for real ramblings about the European Union's recent rejection of ACTA.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...umn-ever.shtml

As other posters, I find that indie writers range from terrible to superb. But that ratio is similar to the BPH releases anyway. That is; if you can find the gems amongst the obscuring masses of Emo vampire, zombie apocalypse and endless fantasy novels.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I thought the guy who mentioned the $10,000 was discussing copyediting for fiction/general trade books, not specialized material. That's why I think the amount is outlandish.

He seemed to be, and I also thought that it was improbable.

I have been writing and editing since the early eighties and not only have I never been offered as much, I know no one who has had such an offer. It would be heavily discussed if that was to happen. I am ranked fairly highly for my work and have a number of "name" clients, and I believe that I earn more than most for my services. My company "contracts me out" for editorial work, I don't seek it on a personal level.

We get a lot of work from the US in that Brit/Aussie educated writers and editors are regarded by some as a little bit more "correct" - a little more qualified. Possibly because the standard of English taught in schools and tertiary institutions is held to be a little higher here. I spend my time between England, Australia, and the US; I write and edit in each of those demographics and have yet to see an amount that high offered for simply copy editing a non-technical book.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by twobob

Welcome to the 'perhaps I'll just retire until then' club from this semi-retired market-disgruntled long-time artist.

It sucks to have to think that way; but a good fisherman needs to know when to fish, when to cut bait, and when to get the hell out of the water.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

... a good fisherman needs to know when to fish, when to cut bait, and when to get the hell out of the water.

Hurricane season is not a great time to go fishing, that's for sure.
You could run into A PERFECT STORM.

With all the changes building up in the ebook disruption, expectations need to be adjusted. Sitting it out until things settle down (like the housing market) might be more effective.

[fjtorres]

Speaking of nightmare disruptions for the old guard, there is this little milestone:
http://blog.smashwords.com/2012/07/m...s-hit-new.html

Four of the NYT Top 25 Fiction "Bestsellers", this particular week, come from SMASHWORDS.

I suspect the folks at penguin won't be too pleased.
http://www.thepassivevoice.com/07/20...se-at-penguin/