Why lump SF and Fantasy together

[QuantumIguana]

It's not an external thing. No one would blink an eye at a fantasy panel at a science fiction convention. But put a western panel at a science fiction convention, and people will think that is strange.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Science fiction and crime can coexist quite well. I've read several of Asimov's mysteries.

There is, of course, a technical sense in which this is true. But I don't think that bookstore owners would classify "The Caves of Steel" as a mystery or shelve it in that section. And I don't think that people who like the mystery genre would be very pleased with an Asimov robot mystery, since it violates most of the conventions of the genre. (Primarily being that they are set in a realistic, existing world). More generally, I would say that SF readers don't mind crime in their SF, but crime readers don't want SF in their crimes.

(On the other hand, a lot of romance readers don't mind SF/paranormal in their romances, but a lot of SF readers don't like romances in their SF. Diane Gabaldon is a good litmus test).

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

(I'd like to see Urban Fantasy lumped with the Horror, or safely segregated where I don't have to see it, too, but I guess I can't have everything. It just makes the Fantasy chart on Amazon UK largely useless.)

trust me, a lot of us romance fans would like to see urban fantasy be shelved and charted somewhere else other than in Romance, too. For awhile, it seemed like every other cover had a chick in leather with swords in a darkened urban street.)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

It's not an external thing. No one would blink an eye at a fantasy panel at a science fiction convention. But put a western panel at a science fiction convention, and people will think that is strange.

... unless it's about Firefly. Or Old West steampunk.

The purpose of genres was/is "bookstores need a way to shelve books likely to draw the same buyers close together." In physical stores, this is crucial to good sales. For ebook stores, not so much... books can have multiple genres, multiple tags, and "similar books" means "appeals to people who like what you like" not "has the same story elements."

They're all crossover genres now. One of the reasons indie ebooks are exploding is that authors are no longer pushed in to genre constraints, and can write "crime fantasy" or "horror romance" or "fantasy SF." ("On a space station, a particle-beam experiment goes awry and opens a gate to the Faerie realms" or "a wizard's apprentice summons a team of superheroes".) (Hypotheticals. I don't know of either of those.)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

(Hypotheticals. I don't know of either of those.)

I'm not sure if that's good or bad...

[QuantumIguana]

Sure, a science fiction western like Firefly would be accepted without a second thought and a science fiction convention. If it's science fiction or fantasy, it's in the meta-genre, regardless of whatever genre boundaries it crosses. It is an interesting phenomonon. A science fiction mystery probably wouldn't be accepted as a mystery, but would be accepted as science fiction.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

("On a space station, a particle-beam experiment goes awry and opens a gate to the Faerie realms" or "a wizard's apprentice summons a team of superheroes".) (Hypotheticals. I don't know of either of those.)

Both have been done... in comics.
Best crossover *ever*: Wonder Woman meets Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. With a ide of Catwoman to boot.
(A natural match, right? )
Samuel R. Delany on the script.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafhrd_...cs_adaptations

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Both have been done... in comics.
Best crossover *ever*: Wonder Woman meets Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. With a ide of Catwoman to boot.
(A natural match, right? )
Samuel R. Delany on the script.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafhrd_...cs_adaptations

I think there was a series by - maybe Piers Anthony? - in which some sort of portal opens between a futur-ey sf world and a medieval-ey fantasy world.

[DrNefario]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I think there was a series by - maybe Piers Anthony? - in which some sort of portal opens between a futur-ey sf world and a medieval-ey fantasy world.

I remember that. Was it Split Infinities? It's been a while.

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I think there was a series by - maybe Piers Anthony? - in which some sort of portal opens between a futur-ey sf world and a medieval-ey fantasy world.

"The Apprentice Adept" series ("Split Infinity", "Blue Adept", and "Juxtaposition" for the original trilogy). One of his better ones.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by charlesatan

Because at the heart of it, both SF and Fantasy are about what people tend to regard as unrealistic (although arguably all Fiction is unrealistic). My favorite quote is from Philip K. Dick on the difference:



There is also the set of fictional tropes that they share. And let's not even get into the debate whether titles like Star Wars, Star Trek, Warhammer 40k, Dune, the Dying Earth, is really science fiction or fantasy...

I'm not a snob, so I'm perfectly fine with paranormal "stuff" being placed in the fantasy section.

I don't agree with Dick (that sounds a bit crude). I regard science fiction as both plausible and possible - given time and sufficient technological advances. Zombies, dragons, werewolves, vampires and their many variations are pure fantasy - never going to be real. There is a distinct difference between possible science and fantasy. I enjoy SF, but dislike all fantasy, except possibly for things like Alice or Peter Pan etc., children's stories are a different type of fantasy.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

"The Apprentice Adept" series ("Split Infinity", "Blue Adept", and "Juxtaposition" for the original trilogy). One of his better ones.

Crossing universes is a common fantasy trope to take the reader from the mundane world of reason to a land of magic. Whether it be Donaldson's Thomas Covenant, Alan Dean Foster's SPELLSINGER, or Christopher Stasheff's WIZARD IN RHYME, to name just a few.

Quite a few others have gone through deep convolutions to cast fantasy as SF. Christopher Stasheff's WARLOCK series, Marion Zimmer Bradley's DARKOVER come to mind. I'm sure plenty of other examples come to mind.

Again, I think that if we're to try to classify the continuum of "non-mundane" stories, we need to go to the core of the story, first; what is the story about. Afterwards we can take a look at the setting and the rationalization, if any. In general, Fantasy doesn't usually bother with trying to explain its magic whereas SF usually tries to justify its "magic" in rationalist terms.

Of course, general rules are anything but universal.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

In general, Fantasy doesn't usually bother with trying to explain its magic whereas SF usually tries to justify its "magic" in rationalist terms.

I would argue that the justification for technology in most science fiction books is as rational as the magic in fantasy books. The main time that science fiction deviates into the (potentially) rational is when they are exploring social issues. Things like genetic modification or first contact. In those cases, dipping into the irrational would detract from their message so they seem to be more inclined to keep it real.

[elcreative]

After six and a half years of working in and then running an SF specialist shop together with 40-odd years of cons, we all came to the conclusion that the best definitions of what's SF&F (and horror etc) were the simplest (and entirely personal)... it's what I point to on the shelf and describe as SF or F or...

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by elcreative

After six and a half years of working in and then running an SF specialist shop together with 40-odd years of cons, we all came to the conclusion that the best definitions of what's SF&F (and horror etc) were the simplest (and entirely personal)... it's what I point to on the shelf and describe as SF or F or...

The "you'll know it when you see it" ploy, huh?