Secondhand ebooks?

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I doubt anyone would get sued, but Amazon have illustrated their willingness to close people's accounts who violates their terms of service, and re-selling an eBook is most assuredly a violation of Amazon's terms of service, regardless of the law. A private seller such as Amazon is perfectly at liberty to impose terms of service which are more restrictive than the law.

Have we moved beyond legalities then? Does the corporate TOS trump all?

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

Try this for reading on a pretty similiar sort of thing in the courts. About the reselling of CDs labeled "not for resale".

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2...e-oh-yes-it-is

I must admit to this practice

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Have we moved beyond legalities then? Does the corporate TOS trump all?

You're freely and willingly entering into a contract with Amazon. Nobody's forcing you to do so. If you don't like their TOS, buy elsewhere.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You're freely and willingly entering into a contract with Amazon. Nobody's forcing you to do so. If you don't like their TOS, buy elsewhere.

How in the world is the consumer "freely and willingly" agreeing to a contract with Amazon when the terms are hidden?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

How in the world is the consumer "freely and willingly" agreeing to a contract with Amazon when the terms are hidden?

They are not "hidden" in the least. They're clearly linked to on the Kindle Support page. How could I have found - and quoted them - if they'd been hidden?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

They are not "hidden" in the least. They're clearly linked to on the Kindle Support page. How could I have found - and quoted them - if they'd been hidden?

Well, if you do not read them you are not willingly agreeing.

But the main point you seem to ignore the whole time is that just because a seller write something it does not mean that it holds. I mean sellers try to write things concerning support that does not hold because of the laws in the country.

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You're freely and willingly entering into a contract with Amazon. Nobody's forcing you to do so. If you don't like their TOS, buy elsewhere.

OTOH, if you assume their TOS is not legally valid anyway you can comfortably buy there and ignore the irrelevant terms without worrying about it. Personally I do that when removing DRM so I can load a book into Calibre.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Soldim

OTOH, if you assume their TOS is not legally valid anyway you can comfortably buy there and ignore the irrelevant terms without worrying about it. Personally I do that when removing DRM so I can load a book into Calibre.

So do I. But my point is that Amazon may perhaps decide not to do business with you in the future if you do break their TOS. It's a risk you (and I) take.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

They are not "hidden" in the least. They're clearly linked to on the Kindle Support page. How could I have found - and quoted them - if they'd been hidden?

When you buy an e-book, do you ever get a statement of terms where you have to formally check "I agree"?

What is on the support page is irrelevant. It is not presented to me for agreement at the time of purchase.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

When you buy an e-book, do you ever get a statement of terms where you have to formally check "I agree"?

What is on the support page is irrelevant. It is not presented to me for agreement at the time of purchase.

You agreed to it when you created your Amazon account. If you didn't read the "Conditions of Use" that were presented to you, that's hardly Amazon's fault, is it?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You agreed to it when you created your Amazon account. If you didn't read the "Conditions of Use" that were presented to you, that's hardly Amazon's fault, is it?

I created my Amazon account, oh, maybe 15 years ago. Has Amazon ever changed any terms over that time span? If so, they never advised me.

I cannot be held to terms I didn't specifically agree to. Amazon could insert a clause somewhere saying a customer has to sign over his or her firstborn child--doesn't mean it's enforceable, even if the customer once ticked the "agree" box on a form.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You are buying. You're buying a licence.

Is it legal to try to enforce the terms & conditions when Amazon never made me read them and never made me agree to them? So, I've never read the t&c and I've never read the t&c. If buying an eBook from Amazon enforces the t&c, then Amazon needs to present them to me to read and then agree to them.

[eskimo49]

There is similar problems with photographs and software. When you pay a photographer to take your photographs, at a wedding or a formal photograph (usually in a studio), then the copyright belongs to the photographer, not the person paying for it - UNLESS agreed otherwise (and usually at extra expense).

When you purchase software, you are usually buying a licence to use the software, not the software itself.

So should books,e-books, CD,s DVD films be any different?

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by eskimo49

There is similar problems with photographs and software. When you pay a photographer to take your photographs, at a wedding or a formal photograph (usually in a studio), then the copyright belongs to the photographer, not the person paying for it - UNLESS agreed otherwise (and usually at extra expense).

When you purchase software, you are usually buying a licence to use the software, not the software itself.

So should books,e-books, CD,s DVD films be any different?

That's the only letdown I feel with e-books, and is why I insist on only buying the cheapest books possible, or reading mostly public domain literature.

I can use my cd's and dvds, and paper books, because they are self-contained, and EASY to pass from one person to another without a third party nosing in on my business, telling me who can and can't touch stuff that I personally paid for.

I have DVDs sitting on my shelf that I own, that I must have allowed dozens of people to use and likewise they have let me watch some of theirs. No problem, not illegal, no copies were made, I just let someone use my physical thing.

With e-books a person can't generally do that - it's currently a grey area, because hitting "send" means a copy gets made (if I email a book for instance) and I've broken copyright, even if I do end up deleting all traces of my original.

It's the nature of the beast. But the fact that I insist on my books be DRM free (at the store) and inexpensive is a tradeoff for the restrictions that come with it. I'll still give away my printed books (and still do).

[eskimo49]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

That's the only letdown I feel with e-books, and is why I insist on only buying the cheapest books possible, or reading mostly public domain literature.

I can use my cd's and dvds, and paper books, because they are self-contained, and EASY to pass from one person to another without a third party nosing in on my business, telling me who can and can't touch stuff that I personally paid for.

I have DVDs sitting on my shelf that I own, that I must have allowed dozens of people to use and likewise they have let me watch some of theirs. No problem, not illegal, no copies were made, I just let someone use my physical thing.

With e-books a person can't generally do that - it's currently a grey area, because hitting "send" means a copy gets made (if I email a book for instance) and I've broken copyright, even if I do end up deleting all traces of my original.

It's the nature of the beast. But the fact that I insist on my books be DRM free (at the store) and inexpensive is a tradeoff for the restrictions that come with it. I'll still give away my printed books (and still do).

I agree, the price of e-books is in many cases a complete rip-off. There is no printing involved, it costs practically nothing to download, and often don't require a literary agent either. Cost of proof-reading is usually borne by the publisher - which in many cases for e-books - is the author.

When there is a paper book as well, the e-book is often around the same price as the paper book (sometimes even dearer).

For most paper-back equivalents I would be unhappy to pay more than £2.00 for an e-book (around $3.00), and would hope it would be less.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You're freely and willingly entering into a contract with Amazon. Nobody's forcing you to do so. If you don't like their TOS, buy elsewhere.

So books bought through Amazon should not have first sale rights, but books bought at other vendors should?

Yes, Amazon as a corporate individual can end its relationship with any other corporate individual at any time or vice versa, but is it right for Amazon to deny the secondhand sale of their ebooks?