Tor/Forge Books Announces DRM-Free E-book Store

[crossi]

What about the rights of an author whose publisher has the ebook rights but is just sitting on them depriving the author of his rightful potential royalties?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by crossi

What about the rights of an author whose publisher has the ebook rights but is just sitting on them depriving the author of his rightful potential royalties?

What rights? The ones he gave to his publisher? Or some perceived right to not have contracts apply to him? If he didn't want the publisher to have ebook rights, he should not have signed them away. If he wanted the publisher to have to use rights in a certain way by a certain time, then that should have been in the deal.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The other shoe drops.



LINK


Now you' ll recall when Tor announced it was going DRM free, I said that its not surprising that a Macmillan line was going to do that, since:

1.Macmillan is run by John Sargent,
2.DRM helps Amazon lock in customers according to some,
3.Sargent is willing to go to the line to beat Amazon(See last February's showdown).

Also too, I posted that the BPHs might be willing to do a "Pottermore" and sell direct DRM free to customers as a way of reducing their dependence on Amazon.

Well, lookee here. Tor. com is opening a DRM free book store. Charlie Stross, who swears that publishers "cut their own throats" by letting Amazon impose its own DRM on books, is a big booster of this strategy and swears it will be help smaller retailers . John Scalzi and Cory Doctorow say amen HERE.

Think this will work?

Why would something like this attract the average consumer? I have never had a problem with DRM, why would I want to go out of my way to avoid it? Why would most people who only had one brand of eReader and who weren't pirates?

[charlesatan]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Why would something like this attract the average consumer? I have never had a problem with DRM, why would I want to go out of my way to avoid it? Why would most people who only had one brand of eReader and who weren't pirates?

I think Amazon has created an experience for the average consumer where the DRM is seamless and unobtrusive. If you're a Kindle user, then I don't see how the announcement will change your buying habits significantly (unless you're the techie type that backs up their eBooks or converts them into another format using Calibre).

For everyone else, even those who follow one brand of eReader (take your pick), authenticating/authorizing DRM can be a significant hindrance and a chore. It's why NetGalley is the blessing/bane of book reviewers: on one hand, it has a massive selection from a lot of traditional publishers; on the other hand, most of them are DRM'd.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Why would something like this attract the average consumer? I have never had a problem with DRM, why would I want to go out of my way to avoid it? Why would most people who only had one brand of eReader and who weren't pirates?

Right now, perhaps there aren't all that many people whom it would affect, indeed - but now that the widespread usage of ereaders is, say, 2-3 years old, there will be more and more people whose first reader has died / will die soon and who, when looking for their next reader, might decide to switch from their Sony to a Kindle, or from their Kindle to a glowlight Nook, or from their Kindle to a Kobo (never mind from their iPad, where they bought books from the iBookstore, to an Android tablet or eInk reader of any sort) - and will then realise that their dozens of already bought books (some of which they may not even have read yet) will not work on the new reader.

Some people will be knowledgeable enough to find out about that beforehand and either stick with the brand (or format) they had before, even if another brand offers more things they like, but not everyone will realise there is a reason to even look into it, being used to being able to play their DVDs in more than one brand of DVD player and their store-bought mp3 files in more than one brand of mp3 player.

I don't think this sort of scenario is out of the question for the "average consumer" (who is likely a reasonably avid reader, if they already had an eInk reader - leaving out tablets here as tablets can be rooted or are natively able to use apps for various formats) - if not yet now, then in another year or two this may become a fairly significant issue for a lot of people.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Why would something like this attract the average consumer? I have never had a problem with DRM, why would I want to go out of my way to avoid it? Why would most people who only had one brand of eReader and who weren't pirates?

My wife has a Kindle 3G (2nd gen with a keyboard) and an Android Tab (Asus Transformer prime). I'm on a Nook Simple touch and an Android tab. My kids are on a couple of Nooks with CM7 (so basically Android tablets).

Guess what I can't do, technically, encumbered by DRM?

On Android, reading would require a library of multiple Apps that works/runs differently and has different libraries (say, Kindle, Nook, Kobo) rather than using one app like Moon+ Reader.

I also couldn't loan a book bought from B&N to a friend (or my wife) that has a Kindle.

If you are willing to shop only from one store, and be locked into one brand of device, forever, then yeah, I'm sure you aren't going to have much of a problem. At least until your chosen company stops making reading devices or goes out of business or something.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Why would something like this attract the average consumer? I have never had a problem with DRM, why would I want to go out of my way to avoid it? Why would most people who only had one brand of eReader and who weren't pirates?

Around these parts, MidnightBlue, anti-DRMism is kind of a religion. Its THE most important ebook issue.


In any case, Charles Stross argues that the publishers made a big mistake by instituting DRM, because Amazon gained a stranglehold on the Ebook market, mainly through DRM :

As ebook sales mushroom, the Big Six's insistence on DRM has proven to be a hideous mistake. Rather than reducing piracy[*], it has locked customers in Amazon's walled garden, which in turn increases Amazon's leverage over publishers. And unlike pirated copies (which don't automatically represent lost sales) Amazon is a direct revenue threat because Amazon are have no qualms about squeezing their suppliers — or trying to poach authors for their "direct" publishing channel by offering initially favourable terms. (Which will doubtless get a lot less favourable once the monopoly is secured ...)

If the big six began selling ebooks without DRM, readers would at least be able to buy from other retailers and read their ebooks on whatever platform they wanted, thus eroding Amazon's monopoly position. But it's not clear that the folks in the boardrooms are agile enough to recognize the tar pit they've fallen into ...

LINK

Apparently, someone listened, since Tor, an arm of the big publisher Macmillan, decided to sell its books DRM free and open a store. Frankly, I doubt this will make much difference , because as you noted, most buyers don't care about DRM, but we'll see.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Apparently, someone listened, since Tor, an arm of the big publisher Macmillan, decided to sell its books DRM free and open a store. Frankly, I doubt this will make much difference , because as you noted, most buyers don't care about DRM, but we'll see.

And if you read Stross' essay the argument was that for books that most people buy it probably does not matter but it matters for midlist books sold to technically literate people like science fiction mid-list books.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Right now, perhaps there aren't all that many people whom it would affect, indeed - but now that the widespread usage of ereaders is, say, 2-3 years old, there will be more and more people whose first reader has died / will die soon and who, when looking for their next reader, might decide to switch from their Sony to a Kindle, or from their Kindle to a glowlight Nook, or from their Kindle to a Kobo (never mind from their iPad, where they bought books from the iBookstore, to an Android tablet or eInk reader of any sort) - and will then realise that their dozens of already bought books (some of which they may not even have read yet) will not work on the new reader.

Some people will be knowledgeable enough to find out about that beforehand and either stick with the brand (or format) they had before, even if another brand offers more things they like, but not everyone will realise there is a reason to even look into it, being used to being able to play their DVDs in more than one brand of DVD player and their store-bought mp3 files in more than one brand of mp3 player.

I don't think this sort of scenario is out of the question for the "average consumer" (who is likely a reasonably avid reader, if they already had an eInk reader - leaving out tablets here as tablets can be rooted or are natively able to use apps for various formats) - if not yet now, then in another year or two this may become a fairly significant issue for a lot of people.

I suppose that if I had to change eReaders and I had some unread books on my old one it might be a problem, but I am happy with my Kindle and if something happened to it I would just buy another one. As for all the books that I had bought and already read, I would hardly need to have those in a new format. I think that DRM is an issue for a very small number of people, probably most of them geeks.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Around these parts, MidnightBlue, anti-DRMism is kind of a religion. Its THE most important ebook issue.


In any case, Charles Stross argues that the publishers made a big mistake by instituting DRM, because Amazon gained a stranglehold on the Ebook market, mainly through DRM :



LINK

Apparently, someone listened, since Tor, an arm of the big publisher Macmillan, decided to sell its books DRM free and open a store. Frankly, I doubt this will make much difference , because as you noted, most buyers don't care about DRM, but we'll see.

A religion? A common topic over the past few days. Well I hope that I can avoid baptism. How does DRM lock one into Amazon? I have a lot of non Amazon books on my Kindle, either emailed direct to the Kindle or put on using Calibre. I have a lot of Gutenberg Project books loaded via Calibre.

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Why would something like this attract the average consumer? I have never had a problem with DRM, why would I want to go out of my way to avoid it? Why would most people who only had one brand of eReader and who weren't pirates?

A lot of the people who have been reading ebooks since the early days know that DRM systems have been shut down, formats have been changed, and that if the ebook is encrypted with DRM, and can't strip the DRM, they can effectively lose all their books if they ever have to switch to a new eReader. When the ebook is DRM-free, in a standard ebook format, it should be either readable on any reader, or can be converted to a format that is readable on one's eReader of choice.

IMHO, the real reason why Tor (Macmillan) is dropping DRM is because the way DRM is implemented on the Kindle, the only retailer who can sell you a copy of an ebook with DRM for the Kindle is Amazon. Until now, all of the big publishers only sell ebooks with DRM. Macmillan regrets aiding Amazon in maintaining their walled garden of Kindle ebooks that can only be purchased at Amazon, and by removing DRM, any retailer can sell ebooks to Kindle owners. I don't think it will be all that successful, since the biggest factor for most Kindle (and Nook) owners is the ability to purchase a book, either from a PC or from the eReader itself, and have it automatically download to the eReader from either 3G or Wifi without having to connect the eReader to a PC.

[charlesatan]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

A religion? A common topic over the past few days. Well I hope that I can avoid baptism. How does DRM lock one into Amazon? I have a lot of non Amazon books on my Kindle, either emailed direct to the Kindle or put on using Calibre. I have a lot of Gutenberg Project books loaded via Calibre.

The problem is when you migrate out of the Kindle (and presumably there is no Kindle app for that device).

If the Kindle eBook is DRM'd, you can't convert it using Calibre without breaking the DRM first.

Loading files into the Kindle isn't the problem with DRM'd Kindle books. Using the files you bought via the Kindle to other devices, is. (This is somewhat mitigated by the proliferation of Kindle Apps which locks you into the Amazon ecosystem even when you don't necessarily own a Kindle).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

I think that DRM is an issue for a very small number of people, probably most of them geeks.

Since the most recent de-drm tools update (22 May 2012), the tools have been downloaded directly from the original location over 70,000 times, and probably passed on to many more people by secondary distribution.

"Very small"? Well, perhaps when looking at that as a percentage of the whole population. But then, the percentage of the population that read books for fun is rather small. And then number who buy (say) more than a dozen ebooks a year is much smaller than that.

So I suspect that of the people who do buy significant numbers of ebooks, it's not a small percentage at all.


Suspicions are all very well, but I then went to look for some figures and found this. It's only for the US, but worth looking at I think. 19% of adult Americans own an ebook reader, and the average ebook reader owner reads 24 (mean) or 12 (median) books (NB books, not just ebooks) a year.

The tricky bit is working out how many people are buying significant numbers of ebooks (rather than paper books).

One detail from the survey is quoted in this article: 5% of US adults read more than 50 books a year. Not that that helps with the figures.


Figures to nearest million.
Number of adult Americans = 239m
Number of adult Americans with ebook reader = 45m
Number of adult American who reads 12 or more books a year = 23m

Number of adult Americans with ebook reader who buy more than 12 ebooks a year: no data. Say 1/3 or the above: 7 million or so.

Percentage of those people who've found and downloaded the de-drm tools: 1%


Hmm... OK, it is a small percentage. But interesting to have a number, even if it is still partly guesswork.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by charlesatan

The problem is when you migrate out of the Kindle (and presumably there is no Kindle app for that device).

If the Kindle eBook is DRM'd, you can't convert it using Calibre without breaking the DRM first.

Loading files into the Kindle isn't the problem with DRM'd Kindle books. Using the files you bought via the Kindle to other devices, is. (This is somewhat mitigated by the proliferation of Kindle Apps which locks you into the Amazon ecosystem even when you don't necessarily own a Kindle).

Or, taking the long view, if Amazon is out of business in 10 years or gets out of the Kindle book business, you don't have any support any more - sure your existing Kindle works, but what beyond that?

You're tied to the well being of Amazon to continue to use your media. Imagine if books you bought at Borders didn't work now.

And I know everyone is cocky - I hear the same attitude with PC gaming and Steam - "they'll always be around". Given the number of epic bankruptcy collapses in the last few years...are you sure? Look at the collapse of Lehman Brothers, for example.

No company is bulletproof.

DRM'd e-books aren't as bad as Steam - at least you don't have to worry that when the company folds, the remote-authentication servers aren't there any more. But still...would you buy DVDs or Blu-rays that would only play on Sony players, and count on Sony always being around?

You're doing the equivalent with Amazon's DRM, or, realistically, any company's DRM except for perhaps Adobe DRM epub - that's the closest equivalent to DVD DRM (DRM but with no particular vendor lockin) to me is standard Adobe epub DRM - at least that is used across a few different companies (Sony, Kobo, etc).

Books are, to me, often a long-term purchase. I'll re-read them years from now. I'll probably still be reading Asimov's Robot/Foundation novels in 20 or 30 years, just like I read them in high school. It's part of the intrinsic value of it to me (and why I purchase one). I should be able to use it without any trouble, just like a paper book.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

Or, taking the long view, if Amazon is out of business in 10 years or gets out of the Kindle book business, you don't have any support any more - sure your existing Kindle works, but what beyond that?

You're tied to the well being of Amazon to continue to use your media. Imagine if books you bought at Borders didn't work now.

Hows that working for the other Rocket eBook Reader owners? I know my batteries are toast and the reader only works when plugged into the wall. Or anyone that bought books from Embiid.

Greg Weeks