Blatantly political rant

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

HUH? I am exercising caution and common sense...

You're also over-reacting to the situation. People (including myself) have had fluorescents, and much more dangerous chemicals, in our homes for years. Proper care ensures that we haven't wiped out our homes and families. You don't want to replace your car with a hybrid? Don't. Just try not driving the car you have as much, combining trips, not speeding, and occasionally walking or riding a bike. You want to use wasteful incandescents... fine. But turn 'em off when you leave the room.

You don't want to buy greener products, then don't. Just use common sense with the products you've got, and you're accomplishing a lot.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You're also over-reacting to the situation. People (including myself) have had fluorescents, and much more dangerous chemicals, in our homes for years. Proper care ensures that we haven't wiped out our homes and families. You don't want to replace your car with a hybrid? Don't. Just try not driving the car you have as much, combining trips, not speeding, and occasionally walking or riding a bike. You want to use wasteful incandescents... fine. But turn 'em off when you leave the room.

You don't want to buy greener products, then don't. Just use common sense with the products you've got, and you're accomplishing a lot.

Really? Proper care? Just because you use proper care doesn't mean the majority of people do. And I'm wondering, how does replacing something that uses more energy with something that uses less energy BUT has poisonous chemicals make sense? I'm not 'over reacting' Im simply saying.....this whole 'greenie' thing has gotten out of control. Government corruption and ineptness is rampant, and I'm supposed to care about this. And by the way.....we do have one CFL light in the house. Its in my husbands lamp. I do know how to compromise......

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Or maybe they'll take away what social security is left, and throw everyone over 70 into old folks' barracks. (Hey... sarcasm is fun!)

At any rate, as I said, most conservation and wasteful practices are easy to recognize. We've just become pre-programmed by media and government to not think about them, to embrace and even celebrate the ease at which we can toss the nastiest things into the nearest trash can and thereby forget they ever existed.

That mindset is still prevalent in the American culture, and it's high time to get it out of there.

And who made you the Ubermensch? If you don't like the mindset, don't follow it. I'll back your right to go your own way 110% (with plenty more in reserve). But you don't have the right to tell me how to live my life to meet your standards. And I <deeply> resent the attitude that you do have that right.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

no one is federally mandated to drive either ...

A while back, there was a discussion on a list I'm on, provoked by one of the posters. she'd been born and raised in NYC, and now lives and works in Seattle. Some friends had taken her target shooting, and she discovered she was pretty good at it and liked it. But she'd been raised in a household where handguns were Evil Things, and she was being a Bad Girl for using one and liking it.

Like most things, it's cultural, and I suggested she compare notes with someone from the rural midwest, where a boy might get his first shotgun at age 12 as part of a rite of passage into manhood. There are a number of distinct regional cultures in teh US, and attitudes toward guns differ in them.

Another chap on the mailing list ranted that only licensed, trained government employees should be permitted to own and carry handguns. I told him he wasn't thinking broadly enough. He should look at another commonly owned and used device that has been responsible for far more fatalities over the years than guns ever have, and advocate that only licensed, trained government employees should be permitted to own and drive cars...
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

Economics is actually the best force for change that we have ever come up with. And that is coming from a yellow dog Democrat, dyed in the wool liberal. If you make it economically worthwhile to do something, people will do it. The only power that government has that works is to guide economics. They don't do it well, but they do that better than anything else they have tried.

Yep.

I've never worried about Malthus's overpopulation doom scenario. Population growth drops dramatically in developed countries. Societies tend to have lots of kids when you have high infant mortality and you are largely based on agriculture and manual labor. You have lots of kids to insure that enough will survive to provide the needed hands to get the work done.

In modern industrialized nations, you don't have the high child mortality, or the need for many hands to do the work. And more important, even if you want a lot of kids, chances are you can't afford them.

So it is with other things. Higher oil prices are spurring more interest in alternatives. I worked for an alternative energy project years ago, and the biggest barrier to adoption was economic. Alternative energy solutions don't become attractive till they are cheaper than what they are intended to displace.

Yes, government can provide economic guidance. The problem has historically been that government is good at spending money, but not at making it. The usual role of government in the economy over here is seen as assuring an equitable redistribution of wealth. Splendid, but you must first have wealth to redistribute, and government policies tend to inhibit the creation of wealth.
______
Dennis

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

I'm not 'over reacting' Im simply saying.....this whole 'greenie' thing has gotten out of control. Government corruption and ineptness is rampant, and I'm supposed to care about this.

Try looking at it this way: The whole waste thing has for centuries been out of control, and now it's time to be sane about it. Yes, it means expending money and effort to switch to green practices... but considering how long most of us have been wasting, the expense is a drop in the bucket in comparison.

And you don't have to wait for inept governments to get their act together. That's just another convenient excuse for continuing bad practices. It needs to be done, so start doing it.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

And who made you the Ubermensch? If you don't like the mindset, don't follow it. I'll back your right to go your own way 110% (with plenty more in reserve). But you don't have the right to tell me how to live my life to meet your standards. And I <deeply> resent the attitude that you do have that right.

Pay close attention to this: They are not my standards. Stop acting like I'm the Great Dictator, ordering everyone to do whatever asinine thing comes into my head because my bubble-headed mistress thinks it's a cute thing to do. It's a Texan in office, not me.

I'm telling you how you can conserve resources. And I'm telling you that it's not that frickin' hard. That's all.

But hey... it's a God-given American tradition to be free to do whatever you want, regardless of its value or sense, so go ahead and be a typical American. It's Standard American Procedure to sit back and say, "Leave it alone, and it'll fix itself," so be my guest. You want to insult me, and blow off my logical refutations of your points? Fine. Continue to be in classic denial, waste energy, waste resources, and act superior beause no one can tell you what you can't throw away. I'm not at your front door stopping you, am I?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Try looking at it this way: The whole waste thing has for centuries been out of control, and now it's time to be sane about it. Yes, it means expending money and effort to switch to green practices... but considering how long most of us have been wasting, the expense is a drop in the bucket in comparison.

And you don't have to wait for inept governments to get their act together. That's just another convenient excuse for continuing bad practices. It needs to be done, so start doing it.

I think are assuming, because we are arguing with you, that we aren't already doing what you suggest. Most of us, the older generation, was raised to not waste. What we are, well, what I am fighting against, is being forced to do something because the government says so. the new mandate about CFL bulbs is a good example. Being constantly lectured by people who think they see the world thru clearer eyes chafes after a while.



Pay close attention to this: They are not my standards. Stop acting like I'm the Great Dictator, ordering everyone to do whatever asinine thing comes into my head because my bubble-headed mistress thinks it's a cute thing to do. It's a Texan in office, not me.
Bush has a bubble headed mistress??? Dang.
I'm telling you how you can conserve resources. And I'm telling you that it's not that frickin' hard. That's all.
Again, you are assuming we don't already know/practice what you are preaching. Its the lecturing thats tiresome.

But hey... it's a God-given American tradition to be free to do whatever you want, regardless of its value or sense, so go ahead and be a typical American. It's Standard American Procedure to sit back and say, "Leave it alone, and it'll fix itself," so be my guest. You want to insult me, and blow off my logical refutations of your points? Fine. Continue to be in classic denial, waste energy, waste resources, and act superior beause no one can tell you what you can't throw away. I'm not at your front door stopping you, am I?

No offense, but I think you need to step back and take a really good look at the shape the world is in today. Madmen rule and are very close to having their fingers on the button. Unless something changes very soon, and cooler heads prevail, we don't really need to worry about a few wasted lights left on. CFL or incandescent.
Cynical? Maybe. But a lot more relevant. Typical American? Lets see, I've worked all my life. Paid my taxes. Been a good neighbor. Kept my pets of others property and had them spayed. Raised my kids to respect authority, and stay away from drugs. Loved my husband and been faithful. I really try not to be too wasteful. I try to be a good person. If that, in your opinion, is not good enough, so be it.

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

A while back, there was a discussion on a list I'm on, provoked by one of the posters. she'd been born and raised in NYC, and now lives and works in Seattle. Some friends had taken her target shooting, and she discovered she was pretty good at it and liked it. But she'd been raised in a household where handguns were Evil Things, and she was being a Bad Girl for using one and liking it.

Like most things, it's cultural, and I suggested she compare notes with someone from the rural midwest, where a boy might get his first shotgun at age 12 as part of a rite of passage into manhood. There are a number of distinct regional cultures in teh US, and attitudes toward guns differ in them.

Another chap on the mailing list ranted that only licensed, trained government employees should be permitted to own and carry handguns. I told him he wasn't thinking broadly enough. He should look at another commonly owned and used device that has been responsible for far more fatalities over the years than guns ever have, and advocate that only licensed, trained government employees should be permitted to own and drive cars...
______
Dennis

indeed! i was also raised in a similar situation and have recently gotten into shooting. i find it horribly dangerous ... to my wallet! it is just way too much fun.

[Donnageddon]

The other day, I went to my favorite political forum, and damned if a heated discussion of eBooks didn't break out!

Kinda like relaxing at a good boxing match when suddenly a hockey game interrupts it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

[COLOR="Red"]No offense, but I think you need to step back and take a really good look at the shape the world is in today. Madmen rule and are very close to having their fingers on the button. Unless something changes very soon, and cooler heads prevail, we don't really need to worry about a few wasted lights left on. CFL or incandescent.

So, keep wasting because we're all about to blow ourselves up anyway? Thanks for the lecture. Mind you, I've heard that one before... like, over the last sixty years. That's a morose, defeatist and so far unfounded attitude that chafes me... so I guess we can share the same tube of ointment when the day is over.

[nekokami]

Funny, the folks I know who recommend CFLs seem to be advocating replacing incandescents when they burn out with CFLs, not going around your house yanking still-functioning bulbs and tossing them into the landfill. Must be different Greenies where some of you folks live.

I think being reminded of how we could live our lives better (in any way) makes a lot of people uncomfortable, because they perceive it as criticism or whatever. Me, I like any extra tips I can get. I may not choose to follow all of them, depending on whether or not they make sense, but I like learning about more ways I can reduce my impact on the earth, improve my health, be a better parent, whatever.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Exactly: I'm not afraid to learn how to live better; and I'm brave enough to be willing to tell others, even when I know they do not want to hear it (thanks to that niggling little "freedom of speech" thing that Americans like to kick around).

[slayda]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Funny, the folks I know who recommend CFLs seem to be advocating replacing incandescents when they burn out with CFLs, not going around your house yanking still-functioning bulbs and tossing them into the landfill. Must be different Greenies where some of you folks live.

I think being reminded of how we could live our lives better (in any way) makes a lot of people uncomfortable, because they perceive it as criticism or whatever. Me, I like any extra tips I can get. I may not choose to follow all of them, depending on whether or not they make sense, but I like learning about more ways I can reduce my impact on the earth, improve my health, be a better parent, whatever.

Well said neko-chan

[Greg Anos]

Steve, you're a professional wordsmith. As such, I have the expectation that you understand the emotional load of words and phrases, and that what you say is what you intend to say. So what do you make of the implications and connotations of your following recent phrases (made after I pointed out a new solar breakthrough) -

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

But these still don't take into account a wasteful lifestyle. We need to improve how we use (and not waste) energy and resources, and alter our perceptions of things like disposables, foods, packaging, transportation/commuting, work, play, etc.

To my reading, this is a request for the vast majority of people to restructure their lifes (and lifestyles). Did I read wrong? I (to me naturally) responded with the questions of how the need for this drastic set of changes was arrived at. I have had lots of people tell me how I should live my life in my lifetime, almost always with absolutely no knowledge of why I make my choices. I've gotten tired of it. The response -

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You shouldn't need to ask "what is wasteful."

... examples ...

Most of these things are common-sense choices, and you shouldn't have to ask someone else for "definitions." Usually, it just requires some thought, maybe after someone else has pointed it out to you, and the waste becomes crystal clear.

That response was, to me, a condesending pat on the head. If only I was a little brighter, I would think just like you. After all, "common sense" was the choices you made and were suggesting that everybody do. (Which was what you were suggesting in the first quote.) Was this your intention? If not why was if phrased the the manner you did? Rather that complain about the (implied) sneer, I decided to provide a counter-point for each of your examples, thereby showing that - 1. I was bright enough to conterpoint you claims. and 2. Those claims weren't as "common sense" as you were making them out to be. The response -

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

... counter point to my counter point (fair and reasonable) ....

At any rate, as I said, most conservation and wasteful practices are easy to recognize. We've just become pre-programmed by media and government to not think about them, to embrace and even celebrate the ease at which we can toss the nastiest things into the nearest trash can and thereby forget they ever existed.

That mindset is still prevalent in the American culture, and it's high time to get it out of there.

You know, the phrase "it's high time to ..." has had the connotation of a call to action, and has been for hundreds of years. Once again, I'm forced to assume that you know what you are implying with your words. In this case, we'll make the masses stop wasting. Well, you don't have that right, and somebody needed to sharply remind you of that. Hence my Ubermensch comment. It had an oversized effect, leading to the following response set -

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Pay close attention to this: They are not my standards. Stop acting like I'm the Great Dictator, ordering everyone to do whatever asinine thing comes into my head because my bubble-headed mistress thinks it's a cute thing to do. It's a Texan in office, not me.

Well, who used the phrase "it's high time to...", who suggested that the american lifestyle need to be rebuilt, and who think that the choices are "common sense" and crystal clear. If these are not your standards, why did you espouse them? I think that's a fair question.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm telling you how you can conserve resources. And I'm telling you that it's not that frickin' hard. That's all.

And none of the rest of us don't know this already? Besides, your previous comments weren't just limited to telling us how easy it is to conserve. See your previous comments.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

But hey... it's a God-given American tradition to be free to do whatever you want, regardless of its value or sense, so go ahead and be a typical American. It's Standard American Procedure to sit back and say, "Leave it alone, and it'll fix itself," so be my guest.

Correct. So why have you been suggesting that the American lifestyle must change in the posting thread?

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You want to insult me, and blow off my logical refutations of your points? Fine. Continue to be in classic denial, waste energy, waste resources, and act superior beause no one can tell you what you can't throw away. I'm not at your front door stopping you, am I?.

My point was to show that there was no "crystal clear" choices. I succeeded in that point. I wasn't interested in a tit-for-tat over individual ideas, just to show that for every idea, there were reasons, pro and con, for decision making. As far as insulting you - guilty! I was rapping your teeth in the fact
that if you want to force your viewpoint down other people's throats, you are going to look arthoritarian. That seems to hit a real nerve with you.

Classic denial... <shrug> I make different choices than your do. That doesn't make me superior or inferior to you. If I work, and get paid for my labors, why can't I spend it as I see fit? If I waste things, I get less for my money. I pay for it by having less. One man's waste is another man's efficent use of resources. Which is cheaper (i.e. more efficent use of monetary resources), living in NYC using public transport, or driving in DFW? Yes, I use more gas. My cost of housing is 1/4 the amount in DFW than in NYC. So who's being more wasteful of money? If the cost of gas exceeded the housing differential, the I might go live in NYC. But that's a long ways away....

[nekokami]

I'm less interested in telling people what they "must" do (or making laws for that purpose) than in making sure people have enough information on which to make good decisions.

For example, I feel our energy prices have been kept artificially low by ignoring many costs associated with producing energy, such as environmental damage, long-term waste storage problems, etc. By eliminating subsidies to energy companies and requiring resources to be dedicated to researching replacements for non-renewable energy sources (e.g. fossil fuels), and including carbon credits in fossil fuel costs, we let the market really work to allow people to regulate themselves. But how can people make good decisions based on costs if the costs are obscured from them?

There are other kinds of feedback that could help people make good decisions, too. In the US, a car can't be sold without an odometer, and there are laws prohibiting tampering with them. My Honda Civic Hybrid includes an extra feature in the odometer that tells me the gas mileage I'm getting , but it's only a feature of the two "trip" odometers. I can leave "Trip A" and never reset it and tell overall what mileage my car is getting, but why not make that a feature of all odometers, and not allow people to alter the baseline gas mileage reading? Then everyone could see, when they buy or drive any car, how much gas they're using. I think that would help people make much better decisions about how they want to spend their money, as well as how they are impacting the environment.

In other words, I think a system that ensures that people who use resources are generally paying for them is fair, and I trust people to make more good decisions if more information is provided for them. But I think our current system actively obscures costs to promote additional consumption. I don't believe this is in any of our long term interests.