Secondhand ebooks?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by plib

I didn't say you're stupid, for all I know you're very bright. But I'm afraid some of the ideas you're espousing are seriously stupid.

Just because you disagree with her position on this issue doesn't mean her ideas are "stupid". Thoughtful people can and do arrive at different conclusions about the ramifications of reselling, donating, and giving away ebooks.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by danskmacabre

yes going back to the original discussion. I would like to be able to legally pass on ebooks (I.E. give to someone else and delete my copy) that I no no longer want.

I appreciate that people copy ebooks and pass them around, but I can't stop them doing that.

And I so wish that was not the case. I'd love to be able to give away a bought e-book (Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere, I bought that after seeing the movie Stardust and thought I'd try out a book of his, but didn't like it one bit) that I didn't like and just have it be a given that I didn't keep a copy for myself. But nope, so that is 10 dollars that I have sitting there rotting, with no appreciative recipients. It taught me that I don't want to buy e-books unless I have had a chance to read the entire book for free at the library and know I will love it. I learned my lesson.

With Printed books, had I bought it in printed form, it would have been no problem. I could give the book away if someone saw me reading it in the park, and they said, "Hey, I've always wanted that book!" I could say, "well, here you go, I am not enjoying it, have fun!" No need to share an ADE account, or whatever, easy peasy.

Go to bookcrossing.com sometime and see how many hands a SINGLE copy of a book gets sometimes. I've watched single copies of popular print-books get tracked (each copy has it's own personal "tracking" number) to dozens of people and still going strong.

It's largely why I prefer (to buy) physical media over digital media (one could argue that my DVDs and CD's are digital, but they are on a standalone physical unit that I can just give, nevertheless) I'm not stuck with some piece of crap that I bought and then changed my mind about. That's why I use my e-reader largely for the public domain stuff.

I wish it were legal to pass on e-books, because morally, if a person actually does delete all traces of it from their personal e-reader and computer etc, and practically, it is no different than physical book. Unfortunately e-books reproduce faster than rabbits, which is to their disadvantage rather than their advantage, when it comes to stuff you may want to pass on.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Miss

I'd be interested to hear others' input on this. It's a different way of looking at things than I was. I notice in the fine print of some (not all) DRMed books it gives restrictions that would literally mean it cannot be used on any ereader that connects to a computer for its material:

"No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retreival system...by any means - electronic...or otherwise - without the prior written permission of the publisher."

Except that the only way for me to use my ereader is to first get the book on my comptuer and then place a copy of it onto my ereader. Is this fine print what you're referring to as a "license agreement"? Because I thought those were always agreed to *prior* to obtaining the material.

When it comes to pbooks the idea of copyright is a straightforward one: it's the right to make copies. In the digital world it is different and I suspect that that is because those who write the laws are computer illiterate. For example if you have an ebook on your PC and your system does an automatic backup you are making a copy of the book. Technically according to the license agreement you shouldn't have a book on such a PC.

On the bright side, not everything in the license agreement is actually enforceable.

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

If you purchased your books at Amazon or B&N or any other place that has a proprietary format (like .azw) and that registers whatever ebook directly to your device, you might first have to strip any DRM off the book. In which case, there is a very slim possibility that you can get in trouble. But unless you've done any kind of illegal stuff that might draw attention to you, there's not much to worry about. Or you could share your account with your friend or whoever, only they're able to see whatever past books you've purchased and they're able to use your One-Click settings to order other books.

You should realize that this is the kind of attitude that pirates have in respect to copyright law. Just because you (probably) won't get caught for stripping DRM doesn't make it any less illegal.

[Giggleton]

Most of this sounds a bit insane to me, why would you ever want to delete/destroy an ebook? The price of storage has been falling constantly for years...

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Most of this sounds a bit insane to me, why would you ever want to delete/destroy an ebook? The price of storage has been falling constantly for years...

because the cost of storing ebooks is irrelevant in this particular conversation. what is being discussed is the legality of giving away your ebooks.

[Pinecone]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

How can an online store check my 650 to see if I have removed a book I am supposed to be selling to someone else?

Or any number of thumb drives, external hard drives, or even internal hard drives that are not connected at this time.

Or the cloud, or other computers that may not be connected to the internet or a network.

And if they could, would YOU give permission for them to scan and read EVERY file on your computer and all drives you own?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Pinecone

Or any number of thumb drives, external hard drives, or even internal hard drives that are not connected at this time.

Or the cloud, or other computers that may not be connected to the internet or a network.

And if they could, would YOU give permission for them to scan and read EVERY file on your computer and all drives you own?

You are not supposed to have copies on any of those drives.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

You should realize that this is the kind of attitude that pirates have in respect to copyright law. Just because you (probably) won't get caught for stripping DRM doesn't make it any less illegal.

That's why I was advocating *not* doing it, I was just trying to be nice in my wording. Which obviously makes me stupid in my ideals and every other part of my life that doesn't agree to the rationale that stealing is okay as long as it's not a car or something anyone cares about.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

As long as I've never done anything else of an illegal nature, I would not worry about having tons of unpaid for ebooks on my computer.

And just how would anyone know if I've paid for the book or not? Just because the DRM's gone doesn't mean it was pirated.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

That's why I was advocating *not* doing it, I was just trying to be nice in my wording. Which obviously makes me stupid in my ideals and every other part of my life that doesn't agree to the rationale that stealing is okay as long as it's not a car or something anyone cares about.

I was talking about the idea of "not doing it because it's wrong" vs. "not doing it because you can get caught" not "doing it" vs. "not doing it".

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Catlady

And just how would anyone know if I've paid for the book or not? Just because the DRM's gone doesn't mean it was pirated.

If someone busts into your house with a warrant and takes your computer and every other digital device and finds out that you have 40 gigs of ebooks and you make approximately $15,000 a year... some eyebrows are going to be raised considering there is currently no means to buy used ebooks. Therefore, the books are likely stolen.

Catlady, you personally may not have that many ebooks, but I've met a man that does. Tens of thousands of ebooks, more than he could ever hope to read in his lifetime, rotting away on his hard drives because he doesn't really even read. He just likes to take stuff for free.

The guy is probably in prison right now on different charges--he was trying to smurf the system at a casino and I personally saw the SAR paperwork filed against him. So yes, every aspect of his life was gone through with a fine toothed comb because he was stupid. Hopefully he's not in Guantanamo (sic) Bay.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I was talking about the idea of "not doing it because it's wrong" vs. "not doing it because you can get caught" not "doing it" vs. "not doing it".

Except for some people that doesn't seem to work. They don't understand that stealing is wrong, no ifs, ands, or buts. They've never been caught so they will never be caught, it's a victimless crime, it's no big deal, etc, etc, etc.

My belief is that if you're going to knowingly break the law, at least be honest with yourself and admit that you're doing something illegal and there are consequences. So is a $5-10 book worth the possibility of going to jail?

I might steal food for a starving person. I might kill someone to protect myself or my family from imminent harm. I might rise up in protest to unfair treatment after looking over the issues in a given situation. For something serious like that, I might be willing to put my freedom on the line. But for a book that I probably won't even like? No, I won't.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Except for some people that doesn't seem to work. They don't understand that stealing is wrong, no ifs, ands, or buts. They've never been caught so they will never be caught, it's a victimless crime, it's no big deal, etc, etc, etc.

Actually the point in the piracy debate is not whether stealing is right or wrong, but whether copyright infringement is stealing.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Actually the point in the piracy debate is not whether stealing is right or wrong, but whether copyright infringement is stealing.

As the law currently stands, breaking the copyright on someone else's material is against the law. So even if it's not "stealing" per se, they're still knowingly doing something they know they shouldn't be doing.

Removing DRM from a purchased ebook to better enable the reading of a book "probably" won't get someone in trouble. But probably's are like being pregnant--you either are or you aren't. So someone "probably" won't get in trouble, until they do, and it usually ties in to how much other stuff they have on their computer or whatever.

I figure there's going to be a big case in the news at some point in the near future. A bunch of people are going to say it wasn't stealing, it was "loaning." And the law makers are going to point out that even if someone doesn't know it's against the law, the law still applies, and there will be fines or possible jail time depending.

Secondhand ebooks are currently not allowed. Why? Because giving a book to a friend might not be a big deal, but what that friend does with the book can come back on the original purchaser. Say I buy a big, I give it to my sister, telling her "Hey, don't pass this around, it's just for you." She agrees, then turns and gives it to her 900 closest friends. She's poor, so when the law cracks down, that book is traced back to me and I go to jail because I can't pay the however much money I'm being fined.

So if someone wants to give an ebook to someone else, whatever. The purchaser is the one taking the risk because they're trusting that whoever they're giving the book to is just as honest and trustworthy as they are. And I've had friends before that simply do not know how to keep their mouths shut about anything. Which means Terry Goodkind or someone could turn around and point at me and say I'm the source of whatever, and I could cry about it and plead innocence, but it is what it is.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

And I so wish that was not the case. I'd love to be able to give away a bought e-book (Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere, I bought that after seeing the movie Stardust and thought I'd try out a book of his, but didn't like it one bit) that I didn't like and just have it be a given that I didn't keep a copy for myself. But nope, so that is 10 dollars that I have sitting there rotting, with no appreciative recipients. It taught me that I don't want to buy e-books unless I have had a chance to read the entire book for free at the library and know I will love it. I learned my lesson.

With Printed books, had I bought it in printed form, it would have been no problem. I could give the book away if someone saw me reading it in the park, and they said, "Hey, I've always wanted that book!" I could say, "well, here you go, I am not enjoying it, have fun!" No need to share an ADE account, or whatever, easy peasy.

Go to bookcrossing.com sometime and see how many hands a SINGLE copy of a book gets sometimes. I've watched single copies of popular print-books get tracked (each copy has it's own personal "tracking" number) to dozens of people and still going strong.

It's largely why I prefer (to buy) physical media over digital media (one could argue that my DVDs and CD's are digital, but they are on a standalone physical unit that I can just give, nevertheless) I'm not stuck with some piece of crap that I bought and then changed my mind about. That's why I use my e-reader largely for the public domain stuff.

I wish it were legal to pass on e-books, because morally, if a person actually does delete all traces of it from their personal e-reader and computer etc, and practically, it is no different than physical book. Unfortunately e-books reproduce faster than rabbits, which is to their disadvantage rather than their advantage, when it comes to stuff you may want to pass on.

With photographic images it is possible to "watermark" an image by embedding a code (serial number) in the image in a way that is very difficult to find, let alone remove. If parts of the code are removed, the image becomes effectively corrupted and can't be viewed. The code is scattered throughout the image and can only be read by the software designed for it. There is something similar nowadays on many DVD's and software installs, making it easy to trace duplication. There will always be people who reverse engineer any security code, but it would keep the less dedicated and less computer literate honest.

Something similar for eBooks would seem to be a better option than DRM.