Google Announces the Nexus 7"

[Sil_liS]

Can someone tell me why a file system would be difficult to use?

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Can someone tell me why a file system would be difficult to use?

It isn't difficult, but the more volumes or configurations thereof, the more minor complications crop up, the more relatively difficult it is to navigate both as a user and as a developer (who have to anticipate all kinds of different configs and make their programs cope with them all -- something that has been done on PCs without issue since the beginning of the age -- but sometimes clumsily). The truth is there's a fever sweeping the mobilists to simplify. That's why copy/paste was so often lagging in adoption in the new platforms. It's why actual, physically depressed buttons, and even dedicated capacitive buttons have been more and more phased out.

Some small good came from the copy/paste pressure, as contextual solutions reduced the need to use it, and thankfully, platforms finally relented and let you have both copy/paste and contextual solutions, rather than forcing the incomplete solution on all (after "all" whined and moaned about it for years). Fewer moving parts (buttons) mean less hardware failure, though the minorness of that bonus can't be overstated - I used my m500 for 4+ years with no button failure, my TX for the same, no button failure, my TP2 (full 5 line qwerty) for over 3 years now, no button failure -- if you have good quality control, you can make buttons just fine, and if you don't have good quality control, a lack of buttons won't keep your device from falling apart or burning up.

The real benefit of simplification is a sleeker, chicer appearance of the UX/UI or hardware itself. For a while we wanted thinner devices so they'd be more pocketable, but then we just became obsessed with thin, and tossed all manner of functionality to achieve it. We are in a function follows form era, and there is currently no OS bucking that trend, though Android had all the way through 2.3.7. Some manufacturers like Asus buck the trend, but even they aren't going to twist el Goog's arm on a project like this one.

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Can someone tell me why a file system would be difficult to use?

It isn't. Haven't met a person yet who I could honestly say would be confused, assuming they were labeled intuitively ("extsd" and such isn't intuitive - "Onboard", "SDCard", and "USB" would be far better volume names) and maybe briefly covered on the almost inevitable quick start leaflet, by being able to access files on removable media.

As for the, according to Google, confusion about where to access data (because most users, even the elderly, are able to figure out if they want their data on external cards/drives, and there's no need for app installation to happen on anything other than the internal storage space) if there's multiple possibilities, just have apps write an appname.dat (or whatever extension, as long as the app name is there for easy identification!) with the metadata needed on that drive/card (rescanning at intervals to check for differences, just like they would if the data were onboard), same way Windows creates a desktop.ini & thumbs.db anywhere it happens to need them...

Sadly, Google either honestly believe their users are blithering idiots or are (quite believably, given their past statements) cynically attempting to keep people on the cloud in order to blur the distinction between local and online (never a good thing).

[tompe]

Originally Posted by David Marseilles

It isn't difficult, but the more volumes or configurations thereof, the more minor complications crop up, the more relatively difficult it is to navigate both as a user and as a developer (who have to anticipate all kinds of different configs and make their programs cope with them all -- something that has been done on PCs without issue since the beginning of the age

Without issues? There have been a lot of issues. Then we have the issue that people normally do not know what a file system is. They just put the files on the desktop or in the document map.

Some small good came from the copy/paste pressure, as contextual solutions reduced the need to use it, and thankfully, platforms finally relented and let you have both copy/paste and contextual solutions, rather

Platforms? Which platforms are you refering to? From what i remember Android had copy/paste from the beginning. It was only iPhone that did not have it.

[ScotiaBurrell]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Can someone tell me why a file system would be difficult to use?

Is not when trained. But todays mobile devices aim for obviousness and simplicity.

file system not that way.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

It isn't. Haven't met a person yet who I could honestly say would be confused, assuming they were labeled intuitively

I have met a lot of people that do not understand things like "create a new map and copy the file to the new map" because they do not have a correct conceptual view of files and file systems.

As for the, according to Google, confusion about where to access data (because most users, even the elderly, are able to figure out if they want their data on external cards/drives, and there's no need for app installation

I thinks this is much harder than you think. What should happen if you plug-in an SD card that happens to have photos on it? What shoud happen when you remove the SD-card which have photos you have tagged or referenced in other applications? How do you find the important data files for an application and what happens if you plug-in an SD card so you have two copies of the application specific file? And so on.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Can someone tell me why a file system would be difficult to use?

I find Android extremely easy to use including iOS, webOS. However folks still criticizes Android for being too difficult to use. I believe the public pressure is on Android to become easier to use.
Also Mantus(sp?), the lead designer has been moving in that direction since he joined Google.

Originally Posted by tompe

Platforms? Which platforms are you refering to? From what i remember Android had copy/paste from the beginning. It was only iPhone that did not have it.

I don't believe that is correct. Part of the reason I stayed away from Android until 2.0 was that it did not have copy and paste nor a virtual keyboard. C&P was introduced around 1.6 or 2.0. Can't remember when I just remember it had been a real kludge. However today's solution is by far the best I've seen on any mobile platform.

Originally Posted by ScotiaBurrell

Is not when trained. But todays mobile devices aim for obviousness and simplicity.

file system not that way.

+1 Spot on. Unfortunately the mobile industry is moving to simplification vs functionality because that is what the general public wants.

[ScotiaBurrell]

Originally Posted by =X=

the mobile industry is moving to simplification vs functionality because that is what the general public wants.

always been this way - two groups - general users and power users.

pc's used to arrive packed with parts and slots that not everyone used. could do it because computer was put inside a huge computer case.

now for mobile goal is to put in as little as possible. easier for user to learn and more room for battery.

apple tried to make desktops pretty and simple. general users ignored them. apple made mobile devices pretty and easy to use and now all new phones try to be that way.

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by tompe

I have met a lot of people that do not understand things like "create a new map and copy the file to the new map" because they do not have a correct conceptual view of files and file systems.

If you use strange terminology instead of the terminology ("directories" or "folders") that's been in use for over 35 years of computer use at the consumer level, sure there will be confusion. (ie, what the hell is a "map" in this context?)

I thinks this is much harder than you think. What should happen if you plug-in an SD card that happens to have photos on it?

Check for the app's (or a system-standard) metadata file on the card, then quickly scan for differences and update the metadata appropriately. If no metadata file, do a full scan for the appropriate file types and create one.

What shoud happen when you remove the SD-card which have photos you have tagged or referenced in other applications?

The application would no longer show them, obviously.

How do you find the important data files for an application

Check local repository for the files, then check removable media, if any. Not difficult. If you mean the user, give them a little credit - they're smart enough to know if they want to use their pictures or videos that are on an SD card (say, from their digital camera or phone), or USB drive, on a device that they should actually plug the card/drive in.

and what happens if you plug-in an SD card so you have two copies of the application specific file? And so on.

If the application isn't smart enough to be able to deal with a local copy of its metadata and the copy on removable media, its programmers need to be flogged for not having basic programming skills and putting out crappy software.

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by tompe

Platforms? Which platforms are you refering to? From what i remember Android had copy/paste from the beginning. It was only iPhone that did not have it.

Windows phone lagged as well. I can't recall whether Web OS launched with copy paste or resisted implementing it.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by ScotiaBurrell

always been this way - two groups - general users and power users.

"Simplified" and "Expert" interface. Android and Ubuntu (Unity), IMHO.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by Ankh

"Simplified" and "Expert" interface. Android and Ubuntu (Unity), IMHO.

There are a lot of Ubuntu users, including myself, who will argue that Ubutnu 12 has shifted from an "Expert" interface to a "Simplified" interface.

I recently upgraded my sisters PC from Windows to Ubuntu because it was more reliable, secure and easier to use than Windows or Macs.

=X=

[Asawi]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

If you use strange terminology instead of the terminology ("directories" or "folders") that's been in use for over 35 years of computer use at the consumer level, sure there will be confusion. (ie, what the hell is a "map" in this context?)

My guess is that the Swedish user that posted this was mixing languages.
"Folder" in Swedish is "mapp".
I do find that many English speaking, relatively computer savvy persons use the word "file" instead "folders" (as well as for actual "files) so there is confusion even staying within language.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by =X=

There are a lot of Ubuntu users, including myself, who will argue that Ubutnu 12 has shifted from an "Expert" interface to a "Simplified" interface.

In preparation to migration to mobile devices, if I am not mistaken. Everything about Unity screams "tablet" and "touchscreen" at me.

"Ubuntu for Android" has to evolve (a lot), but it should serve well as an "Expert" shell for Android phone. When everything is said and done, the thing is designed to be "just another Android app".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

If you use strange terminology instead of the terminology ("directories" or "folders") that's been in use for over 35 years of computer use at the consumer level, sure there will be confusion. (ie, what the hell is a "map" in this context?)

Since I do not use Windows I never remember the term they use and I by mistake took the sound of the Swedish term (It is "mapp" in Swedish). But it is not the terms that are the problem. It is the abstract concepts. Even "program" is not understood. I have told people to start a browser and they do not know what I mean and I get respeonses like "do you mean open the internet".