Pressure Mounting for Judge Cote to Reject E-Book Settlement

[hrosvit]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Paperbacks have got an awful lot more expensive in the UK in the last few years (the normal paperback price is now £7.99 - about US$12.50) and Waterstones sell almost all books at full list price. Books are often half the price at Amazon than at Waterstones.

Can you use Amazon to drive Waterstones out of business?

(sorry; couldn't resist that one)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by hrosvit

Can you use Amazon to drive Waterstones out of business?

It's fine for me - I buy all my books at Amazon. But it's tough for those people who don't use the internet.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Certainly. If Waterstones are the only game in town, with no competition, there's no incentive for them to keep prices low, is there?

So, what if they do? Does UK law force people to buy books?

If prices are too high, people have within their power to send a clear message by boycotting that store and taking up other hobbies. How does a store stay in business if no one buys their products?

The boycott is the great equalizer. Pity it's rarely used.

[stonetools]

Further, Amazon targeted Macmillan during the process, and pulled their books -- and only their books -- in a failed attempt to exert pressure during negotiations.

I think that BPHs like Macmillan and Random House do have the leverage to face down Amazon. Let's face it, those BPHs have the BSAs (best selling authors) and those are who draw customers to bookstores. If a customer can't find James Patterson or Stephen King at Amazon, they'll move on to BN or Kobo without a backward glance-and Amazon knows this.
THe smaller publishers like IPG don't have that kind of leverage , which is why Amazon rolled over them earlier this year.
The DOJ seems to think that the individual BPHs won't be able to face down Amazon and impose aggency pricing in future, but I think that the BPHs can and will-because the alternative will be worse.

[hrosvit]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

So, what if they do? Does UK law force people to buy books?

If prices are too high, people have within their power to send a clear message by boycotting that store and taking up other hobbies. How does a store stay in business if no one buys their products?

The boycott is the great equalizer. Pity it's rarely used.

That's because it's almost impossible to inspire a large enough group of people to inconvenience themselves.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

So, what if they do? Does UK law force people to buy books?

If prices are too high, people have within their power to send a clear message by boycotting that store and taking up other hobbies. How does a store stay in business if no one buys their products?

The boycott is the great equalizer. Pity it's rarely used.

speaking of boycotts, here's a monkeycott:

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by hrosvit

That's because it's almost impossible to inspire a large enough group of people to inconvenience themselves.

Then they'll have to suffer higher prices for their inaction.

For me, I favor personal boycotts. I have enough will power to boycott something indefinitely if need be. There are always other venues of entertainment readily available.

[hrosvit]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Then they'll have to suffer higher prices for their inaction.

For me, I favor personal boycotts. I have enough will power to boycott something indefinitely if need be. There are always other venues of entertainment readily available.

We all make choices. And then we all usually go on the internet and complain about them. I boycotted our local Taco Bell for about a year and a half because their inefficiency drove me absolutely batsh!t crazy. I went back a short time ago, and they seem to be much better. I attribute it to my solitary boycott.

But you are obviously correct. We each evaluate what something is worth to us, and act accordingly. No one is forced to buy books, or e-books, or any other media/entertainment format.

[Top100EbooksRank]

What if Apple launched the ibookstore using wholesale per their original intention?

Could Apple competed against Amazon using wholesale?

Some would argue that Apple would be better off. No DOJ lawsuit and maybe more marketshare if they compete effectively versus Amazon on price.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Top100EbooksRank

What if Apple launched the ibookstore using wholesale per their original intention?

Could Apple competed against Amazon using wholesale?

Some would argue that Apple would be better off. No DOJ lawsuit and maybe more marketshare if they compete effectively versus Amazon on price.

Apple would not have done the IBookstore absent the agency pricing model. They were quite clear on that. They rejected a publisher proposal based on the wholsale model, and countered with an agency pricing proposal on a take it or leave basis.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Paperbacks have got an awful lot more expensive in the UK in the last few years (the normal paperback price is now £7.99

I've just pulled a selection of random reasonably thick paperback fiction from the shelves, covering a wide time period.

PD James - A Taste for Death - 1986 - £4.99
WIll Baker - Shadow Hunter - 1993 - £5.99
Michael Moorcock - Sailing to Utopia - 1993 - £6.99
Paul Doherty - The Horus Killings - 2000 - £5.99
Neal Asher - Gridlinked - 2002 - £6.99
KJ Parker - Colours in the Sand - 2003 - £6.99
Neal Asher - The Line of Polity - 2004 - £7.99

So my pre-1997 books are between 5 and 7 pounds, my post 1997 books are between 6 and 8 pounds.
I'm not seeing a huge jump in prices over that period.
And as for discounts, how many small independent bookstores charged less than cover price?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Apple would not have done the IBookstore absent the agency pricing model. They were quite clear on that. They rejected a publisher proposal based on the wholsale model, and countered with an agency pricing proposal on a take it or leave basis.

So if the other publishers would happen to "lose" ("not win" ... be found to have "done something uncool"—whatever the technical lingo happens to be that means the same thing as "lose") their court case and the punishment is anything similar to the settlement for the publishers who chose not to go to court (assuming the proposed settlement stands), what do you think will be the fate of the iBooks store?

Will they attempt to "hang in there, baby" with agency pricing model contracts with all of the publishers for a few years while the rest of the industry reverts—at least temporarily—to wholesale? Will they be willing to play the wholesale pricing game for a bit? Or will they cut their "losses" and get out of eBook retail? If it's truly agency or bust for Apple... I have to believe iBooks won't survive even a temporary agency pricing hiatus.

[RDaneel54]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I think that BPHs like Macmillan and Random House do have the leverage to face down Amazon. Let's face it, those BPHs have the BSAs (best selling authors) and those are who draw customers to bookstores. If a customer can't find James Patterson or Stephen King at Amazon, they'll move on to BN or Kobo without a backward glance-and Amazon knows this.
THe smaller publishers like IPG don't have that kind of leverage , which is why Amazon rolled over them earlier this year.
The DOJ seems to think that the individual BPHs won't be able to face down Amazon and impose aggency pricing in future, but I think that the BPHs can and will-because the alternative will be worse.

If IPG was rolled over than MacMillan was rolled over. If MacMillan faced Amazon down, than IPG faced Amazon down. Wasn't the end result the same?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Sorry, X, but this is wrong. Price fixing is not illegal. Colluding to fix prices - ie, acting as a cartel - is illegal. For a company to act alone to fix prices is entirely legal, and indeed, widely done.

Are you sure that what you call colluding isn't the same as price fixing?
From legal-explanations.com:

Price Fixing

n.A method in which businesses who are in competition with each other set up a strategy to fix up prices of particular commodities to avoid price competition.It is a criminal act according to federal laws as it encourages unfair competition and the public is deprived of reasonbale prices..This arrangement can also be made between suppliers and manufactures or distributors.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Paperbacks have got an awful lot more expensive in the UK in the last few years (the normal paperback price is now £7.99 - about US$12.50) and Waterstones sell almost all books at full list price. Books are often half the price at Amazon than at Waterstones.

The prices are the same (well, the euro equivalent) in the Netherlands and there are many bookstores around. The high prices are caused by the publishers, not by the bookstores.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

So if the other publishers would happen to "lose" ("not win" ... be found to have "done something uncool"—whatever the technical lingo happens to be that means the same thing as "lose") their court case and the punishment is anything similar to the settlement for the publishers who chose not to go to court (assuming the proposed settlement stands), what do you think will be the fate of the iBooks store?

Will they attempt to "hang in there, baby" with agency pricing model contracts with all of the publishers for a few years while the rest of the industry reverts—at least temporarily—to wholesale? Will they be willing to play the wholesale pricing game for a bit? Or will they cut their "losses" and get out of eBook retail? If it's truly agency or bust for Apple... I have to believe iBooks won't survive even a temporary agency pricing hiatus.

Hard to say. The DOJ would still allow an agency pricing contract-just with no MFN clause-which was and is very important to Apple. But then the DOJ prohibits no MFN clauses for anyone.
Apple doesn't want to get into the business of setting individual prices on thousands of books. They're not set up to do that. Hell, they WON"T do that, period.
I think they are in it for the long haul, or they wouldn't be fighting the DOJ. They would just say "No agency? See ya." They don't really NEED to have an iBook store. But they clearly want to have one.
I think if they have to go wholesale, they'll do an Itunes type pricing model- a simple scheme, take it or leave it,with few promos. Maybe somewhere between 9.99-14.99, across the board, all ebooks. Whatever price they pick, it won't be a money-losing price, though. Count on that.