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View Poll Results: What do you think of this/these proposal(s)?
Excellent proposition 2 4.76%
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:39 AM   #46
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How is the Pirate Parti worse than the current system, which has no respect for the customer or for the general welfare?
How is the Pirate Parti worse than the current system, which has no respect for the citizen or for the general welfare?

There, corrected that one for you!
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:45 AM   #47
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All that said and and done, the law is far from having come into being, yet.
What has happened is that the Commission has voted it - proving once again that only big business interests have its ear. It still needs to be approved by the parliament, and that vote will take place in September.

If you're a EU citizen, time to bug your MP.
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:53 AM   #48
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Except, of course, that nowhere in the procedure described by the law is there anything ressembling involvement of legal justice (you know, due process).
Everything is handled through private entities.
I really don't see the relevence of that. Lots of legal "monitoring" is done by private companies. Eg, most of the CCTV monitoring here in the UK is "private". Presumably in this case the courts would only get involved if a person were to ignore the repeated warnings they'd receive and be prosecuted.

Do you have a problem with the basic concept of people being punished for breaking the law?
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:44 AM   #49
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Do you have a problem with the basic concept of people being punished for breaking the law?
Yes, if it is an unjust law.
I don't see the connection between justice and legality, sometimes they coincide - but often they don't.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:51 AM   #50
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An "unjust law" is a contradiction in terms. "Justice" is the state which prevails when all laws are perfectly enforced.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:51 AM   #51
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Yes, if it is an unjust law.
I don't see the connection between justice and legality, sometimes they coincide - but often they don't.
and that is a very important point to remember.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:53 AM   #52
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An "unjust law" is a contradiction in terms. "Justice" is the state which prevails when all laws are perfectly enforced.
I don't agree - there is moral justice.

Would you have reported a neighbour for harbouring an escaped slave 300 years ago?
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:55 AM   #53
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:55 AM   #54
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I don't agree - there is moral justice.

Would you have reported a neighbour for harbouring an escaped slave 300 years ago?
or a jew, 60 years ago ?
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:56 AM   #55
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You didn't catch the literary reference. That was a quote from Azimov's "The Caves of Steel", when Detective Baley asks R. Daneel Olivaw how a robot can administer justice.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:25 AM   #56
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Great decision!

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Old 07-11-2008, 11:03 AM   #57
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An "unjust law" is a contradiction in terms. "Justice" is the state which prevails when all laws are perfectly enforced.
*IN* a utopia. However, even the most cursory reading would show that many laws are "unjust". In some areas of the US, from what I've read elsewhere, as high at 13%-14% of the laws on the books are "unjust". And in some countries, the "unjust law" rate runs to 70%-80% or higher.

Of course, this only becomes true for definitions of "justice" which match that of, say, OED.

And it also ignores the fact that one can have 'perfect' enforcement without having 'justice'. (Perfect enforcement implies no one breaks the law, not that the law is just.)

Derek
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:08 AM   #58
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I really don't see the relevence of that. Lots of legal "monitoring" is done by private companies. Eg, most of the CCTV monitoring here in the UK is "private". Presumably in this case the courts would only get involved if a person were to ignore the repeated warnings they'd receive and be prosecuted.

Do you have a problem with the basic concept of people being punished for breaking the law?
There is a big difference between a private company monitoring, and a private company making a decision to administer a punishment. Guilty verdicts belong to the courts. It sounds to me like this law, if passed, would allow private ISPs to declare someone guilty after receiving three warnings (without any legal investigation into whether the warnings were justly given), and deny service.

It seems to me that if the legal process is too expensive for small authors/businesses, that's the problem that needs to be addressed, not removing the legal process from the equation.
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:23 PM   #59
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I mean, Tommy, that if I have proof that a machine with a specific IP address is offering my copyrighted material for download illegally, I should have a right to be able to obtain the name and address of the person whose internet connection is being used from their ISP. That seems reasonable to me. Why should a criminal be able to hide behind a "cloak of anonymity"?
In my country you cannot have the name and address of the guy who stole your car, until he is convicted either.

And that's the only reason why the guy who stole my car is still alive.



Think from another POV: what if you are strongly suspected to have stolen a mafia boss's "copyrighted material" and he knows your name and address?

It's not the criminal who hides behind anonymity it's the presumed one. After the verdict his name is public.
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:25 PM   #60
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An author's income from his work forms his "estate". Suppose an author is married, and dies; is there really anything wrong with their wife/husband and children being able to continue receiving income from the sale of the author's books?
Everything is wrong about it.

Do miner's widows get percentages from jewelry sales? Designer's heirs do.

That's unfair. sic et simpliciter.

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If the person had bought shares in a company, they could be passed on in the author's will (and shares are just as "ephemeral" as "rights" to a book). Why single out "intellectual" work as not been permitted to benefit the dependents of the author? It just seems wholy unreasonable to me.
Think it that way: what if somebody did put eternal "copyrights" on the alphabet? Try to figure the consequences.

It's not so absurd: they are now putting "copyright" on living organisms...
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