Anyone watching the MS-BN announcement?

[hrosvit]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

I never said that people weren't using tablets to create. But the choice and scope of apps is limited compared to what you find on Windows, Macs, and even Linux.

Yes, some people will create regardless of the limits. Just look at what people were creating with computers in the late 80s. Yet also realize that the number of people doing so on tablets today is as limited as it was on computers back then.

+1

The best app store in the world can't compare with the selection of software available to a laptop, be it Windows, Linux or Mac. I have an iPad, and absolutely love it. I'm considering having it surgically implanted. But if you held me at gunpoint and made me give up either my laptop or my iPad, I'd dump the iPad, even though I use it a lot more than the laptop. Because there are things that I can do with the laptop (specific software) that I cannot do with the iPad. The reverse is not true. The iPad is the pinnacle of convenience and user-friendliness over true functionality.

My 72 year old mother's laptop computer recently crapped the bed, and she did some preliminary research before calling me to ask what she should buy. She was really interested in the iPad. 99% of what she uses the laptop for is emailing, a little Facebook, picture management and surfing the web. The iPad is 99% perfect for her. Unfortunately, she also has an embroidery machine that uses patterns that you download and place on media cards to transfer to the machine. That means the iPad is dead in the water; there will never be a Husqvarna iOS app (and card reader).

In a perfect world, there would be a device that wouldn't be a compromise. Is this it? Probably not. But I can hope, can't I?

[heySkippy]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

And that is relevant because most people that own an iOS device have only Macs?

Not sure if you're serious, but a very large majority of iOS device owners do not own a Mac.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by hrosvit

In a perfect world, there would be a device that wouldn't be a compromise. Is this it? Probably not. But I can hope, can't I?

Sure. And ou have company.

At a minimum, Surface is a *big* step in the right direction:
MS is saying they are *serious* about full-function Tablets *now*. Not in a few years of incremental improvements to a gadget OS, but right *now*.
(Well, in 4 months, anyway. )

And they don't trust their OEM partners to get it right:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/w...94?tag=nl.e589

So they're putting them on notice that they *must* do better:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/what-...49?tag=nl.e539

The real question isn't whether the WindSurfs are perfect or how they match the needs of buyers of existing products, but rather whether they can meet the needs of people who *aren't* buying existing Tablets.

Surface isn't going after people who are happy with iPads or Androids, they are going after people who *aren't* buying either. And there's a lot more of those than the ones already served. The x86 WindSurf *will* do things either Android not iOS can do or will do any time soon so for those of us that need those functions this is filling a vacuum, not displacing an existing product.

If the quality is there, the buyers will come.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by heySkippy

Not sure if you're serious, but a very large majority of iOS device owners do not own a Mac.

Stonetools was saying that USB slots and SD cards will become less important as wireless technology evolves because you will be able to have "seamless wireless file transfer between Macs and Ios devices in both directions". Since I know that there are many people with PCs that own iPads I don't see how USB slots and SD cards will lose their importance.

[QuantumIguana]

That Apple can sell a tablet without an SD card doesn't prove that people don't want it.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

That Apple can sell a tablet without an SD card doesn't prove that people don't want it.

What do you mean, correlation != causation!?!

BLASPHEMY! Worship the god of illogical conclusions NOW!

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Stonetools was saying that USB slots and SD cards will become less important as wireless technology evolves because you will be able to have "seamless wireless file transfer between Macs and Ios devices in both directions". Since I know that there are many people with PCs that own iPads I don't see how USB slots and SD cards will lose their importance.

That approach works for current tablets, may they be iOS or Android, since they are consumption devices. This has a number of consequences. The first is that you have a Windows, Macintosh, or Linux machine that carries the real weight. Thing is, are people going to want to have a real computer and a tablet in the future? Those of us who love gadgets, sure. People who don't want to deal with lots of gadgets, doubtful.

People who actually create content on their computer are going to see things differently though. If you have enough data, you're probably going to want to backup your data. Sure, you can do that on the cloud, but there are a bunch of boundary cases. Are you dealing with confidential data? Your employer (and, in some cases, the law) won't accept that. Are you dealing with a lot of data? You probably aren't going to want to cough up the monthly fees to store your data online. Are you scanning or printing documents on a regular basis? I'm sure that you can get wireless devices to do the job, but there is a high probability that you'll be using a wired device.

Reliability is another factor. Wireless works great when you have a handful of devices and live in a spread out community. After that, you're dealing with RF interference. The problems may be infrequent, maybe once or twice a month, but you don't want to deal with those problems when you are working on a deadline.

In time, things may change and this tablet utopia may come into being. We could stick to desktops and laptops. To be sure, some people will. The thing is, most people will want tablets because of the convenience (and trendiness). So, until that tablet utopia arrives, we are going to need tablets along the lines of the Surface.

[teh603]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

That approach works for current tablets, may they be iOS or Android, since they are consumption devices. This has a number of consequences. The first is that you have a Windows, Macintosh, or Linux machine that carries the real weight. Thing is, are people going to want to have a real computer and a tablet in the future? Those of us who love gadgets, sure. People who don't want to deal with lots of gadgets, doubtful.

People who actually create content on their computer are going to see things differently though. If you have enough data, you're probably going to want to backup your data. Sure, you can do that on the cloud, but there are a bunch of boundary cases. Are you dealing with confidential data? Your employer (and, in some cases, the law) won't accept that. Are you dealing with a lot of data? You probably aren't going to want to cough up the monthly fees to store your data online. Are you scanning or printing documents on a regular basis? I'm sure that you can get wireless devices to do the job, but there is a high probability that you'll be using a wired device.

Dell came close with the Inspiron Duo, but it still has some BIOS issues that aren't quite patched in Ubuntu yet. I've heard that a recent kernel release might've fixed it, who knows?

Either way, its a wonderful piece and runs Ubuntu well as long as I remember to shut it down before plugging or unplugging it.

Reliability is another factor. Wireless works great when you have a handful of devices and live in a spread out community. After that, you're dealing with RF interference. The problems may be infrequent, maybe once or twice a month, but you don't want to deal with those problems when you are working on a deadline.

I've run into this a lot; GSM is a lot more reliable than wifi because you don't have to try to find a hotspot, but most tablets don't have GSM and those that do usually have it restricted to one of a few providers. The iPad is a notable exception, but is isn't a viable choice because of its lack of a card reader.

[fjtorres]

About the price quote: the original source is now being reported as Digitimes and the screenshot touting the prices is a doctored capture of this:
http://www.microsoft.com/global/surf...especsheet.pdf

Believe or not as you will but I wouldn't bet the farm on that particular report.

[fjtorres]

ooops double post.

[Kumabjorn]

Me wonders if MS's Surface has pissed of any laptop maker, say Acer or ASUS, enough so they will dump Win8 on their next generation computers and sell them with Linux pre-installed with a discounted price equal to MS licensing fee?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Me wonders if MS's Surface has pissed of any laptop maker, say Acer or ASUS, enough so they will dump Win8 on their next generation computers and sell them with Linux pre-installed with a discounted price equal to MS licensing fee?

ACER seems flustered enough that the founder believes one thing--Surface is just to establish Win8 and will be dropped after it succeeds--and their European chief thinks it will fail altogether because of channel conflict alone, regardess of the quality of the product.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-574...ol;editorPicks

In that view, it (apparently) isn't the quality of the software or the hardware that sells PCs, it is the partner OEM brand and anything without it is doomed to failure.

Ohhh-kaaayyy...

As to doing Linux alternatives, *all* the OEMs are doing it *now* and have been doing it for years. The ones complaining about MS undercutting and bypassing them have long tried to undercut and bypass MS for years.

One notable case was DELL who has repeatedly offered Linux variants... for a while but ends up dropping them because the demand is low and the support costs high enough to outweigh the license fee. The most recent try was with Ubuntu:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...buntu-PCs.html

“Dell has offered select consumer systems with Ubuntu pre-installed for more than two years, and is continuing to do so,” said the company in a statement. It said that it had decided to remove the Ubuntu machines from its online sales channel because the platform was better suited to advanced users and computing enthusiasts.

Translation: "If you know how to maintain it we'll sell it to you."

ASUS also tried it early in the Netbook era and the Windows-less netbooks *were* cheaper...because they came with cheaper hardware. Equally equipped, the ended up the same.

The thing is MS doesn't just give the OEMs a master disk and go away to count the money until the next release; MS provides the OEMs a lot of ongoing services and support--up to assuming all legal liability over Windows IP issues, which nobody does for Linux and Google refuses to do for Android licensees. Take those services away and the OEM has to do them inhouse. In most markets the cost of the services outweighs the Windows license fee or the *profits* from the desktop/laptop. (Servers are a different story.)

The main exceptions are in some of the asian markets; most notably China.

So, expect grumbling but no retaliation: MS already threw the OEMs a big bone--the assurance of feature and price parity.
In other words, they promised them that *if* they build tablets as good or better than Surface, they *won't* undercut them. Implied, of course, is that if they make too much of a fuss that *could* change.

The OEMs can't expect "loyalty" they never offered.
It's business, nothing personal. And the stakes for Win 8 are too high, as the ZDNet folks (above) have made all too clear: the entire non-iPad customer base is at stake.

[teh603]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

ACER seems flustered enough that the founder believes one thing--Surface is just to establish Win8 and will be dropped after it succeeds--and their European chief thinks it will fail altogether because of channel conflict alone, regardess of the quality of the product.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-574...ol;editorPicks

In that view, it (apparently) isn't the quality of the software or the hardware that sells PCs, it is the partner OEM brand and anything without it is doomed to failure.

Dunno, I know a lot of people who refuse to buy anything that doesn't have a current version of Windows installed on it. Its mostly people who only know how to run Office and Internet Explorer, or are making some kind of stand on "standardization" of computers.

Surprisingly enough, a lot of teachers fall into this category. Its like they only know what they've been told, and have no academic curiosity outside their own field- but that's a long nasty rant and not really suitable for this thread.

Ohhh-kaaayyy...

As to doing Linux alternatives, *all* the OEMs are doing it *now* and have been doing it for years. The ones complaining about MS undercutting and bypassing them have long tried to undercut and bypass MS for years.

One notable case was DELL who has repeatedly offered Linux variants... for a while but ends up dropping them because the demand is low and the support costs high enough to outweigh the license fee. The most recent try was with Ubuntu:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...buntu-PCs.html


Translation: "If you know how to maintain it we'll sell it to you."

I'd wondered why Dell suddenly discontinued Ubuntu support.

ASUS also tried it early in the Netbook era and the Windows-less netbooks *were* cheaper...because they came with cheaper hardware. Equally equipped, the ended up the same.

They also had a particularly horrible Linux distro installed, too. Its use of UnionFS instead of a normal drive format meant you actually lost disk space if you tried to uninstall software. The base model also didn't have enough disk space to run the system updater; if you tried, you'd have to run the "recovery mode," which simply wiped the user partition.

The thing is MS doesn't just give the OEMs a master disk and go away to count the money until the next release; MS provides the OEMs a lot of ongoing services and support--up to assuming all legal liability over Windows IP issues, which nobody does for Linux and Google refuses to do for Android licensees. Take those services away and the OEM has to do them inhouse. In most markets the cost of the services outweighs the Windows license fee or the *profits* from the desktop/laptop. (Servers are a different story.)

How could there be any issues relating to someone using a licensed copy of Windows? Or any other OS? And what happened to the old saw from the '90s about "Windows is our only profitable product line"?

The main exceptions are in some of the asian markets; most notably China.

China has the only government that's been willing to stand up to MS' strongarm tactics. Instead of caving in and paying MS millions or even billions of dollars, they chose the rarely-exercised option of removing the software and finding something else. For an interesting read, have a look at the conversation between a Peruvian senator and MS over why Peru was switching to Linux from Windows. One of MS' main arguments was, "Without the OS, the computer won't run," like the computer couldn't run any OS but Windows.

So, expect grumbling but no retaliation: MS already threw the OEMs a big bone--the assurance of feature and price parity.
In other words, they promised them that *if* they build tablets as good or better than Surface, they *won't* undercut them. Implied, of course, is that if they make too much of a fuss that *could* change.

The OEMs can't expect "loyalty" they never offered.
It's business, nothing personal. And the stakes for Win 8 are too high, as the ZDNet folks (above) have made all too clear: the entire non-iPad customer base is at stake.

"I am altering our agreement; pray I won't alter it any further."

[stonetools]

In time, things may change and this tablet utopia may come into being. We could stick to desktops and laptops. To be sure, some people will. The thing is, most people will want tablets because of the convenience (and trendiness). So, until that tablet utopia arrives, we are going to need tablets along the lines of the Surface.

i think a lot of debate here goes back to the question " What's a tablet for?". Power users tend to think of current tablets as "crippled PCs" They want tablets to become more powerful , more open, more versatile, more complex- more PC-like. The average consumer doesn't want that, though. They want a simple , reliable, secure device that they can use to consume media, connect to the Internet, and do simple creative stuff . They want a post PC experience, not a PC experience.
Apple in designing the iPad, made a decision not to go with SD cards and USB slots- to much techie disgust. We don't know why Apple did so, and it doesn't matter at this point-because consumers have clearly embraced the iPad. Apple's preferred file transfer solution is iCloud, which it is still implementing. From a consumer POV, it's a great solution-snap a photo on the iPhone, and its automagically pushed to all your devices. No need to fiddle with possibly incompatible dongles, or to remember on which storage device you put what photo. There are still problems to be worked out but eventually you'll create a presentation on your PC ,open it on your iPad and take it to your conference without bothering with the intermediate step of saving it to your flash drive etc.
There are boundary situations, of course, but they'll be fewer and fewer, as Internet connectivity becomes ubiquitous.

That approach works for current tablets, may they be iOS or Android, since they are consumption devices. This has a number of consequences. The first is that you have a Windows, Macintosh, or Linux machine that carries the real weight. Thing is, are people going to want to have a real computer and a tablet in the future? Those of us who love gadgets, sure. People who don't want to deal with lots of gadgets, doubtful.

I think a lot of consumers may just be happy with tablets and might forego PCs altogether. Tell me again why Grandma will want a PC with USB, SD, and HDMI capability, a high end graphics card, and the horsepower to run Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Access applications?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by teh603

"I am altering our agreement; pray I won't alter it any further."

Yup.
"Partners *help* each other--you *haven't* been very helpful lately."
All their "partners" have been throwing money at Android as if there wasn't anything MS could do about it.

Now they know better.

BTW, remember all the flack MS took in the Vista days?
90% of it came from bloatware and crappy OEM confgurations.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/fixin...-at-a-time/429

They've never publicly complained but they took notes and names; you can bet the MS knowledgebase servers are loaded with all the ammo they need if any OEM really gets "upset".