Kindle doesn't have enough memory??

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

To who it may concern:

When placing users on ignore, please don't announce it publicly.

Thank you.

— Moderator

Sorry about that, I did not know. Won't happen again.

It's a very nice feature though, lol!

[geekmaster]

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

The Kindle Touch has 256MB of DRAM memory according to the teardowns and specifications of that part. The Kindles before the third/keyboard have 128MB. The Kindle OS probably takes about 20-50 of it on its own, the rest for the reading, browsing, etc "apps" if you call them.

That estimate is not accurate for modern kindles. The kindle OS consists of the linux kernel, and the framework (the GUI) and all supporting device drivers and background processes. On the K5 (touch), this includes a very large Xorg graphics layer. I did very thorough memory testing when the K5 was first released. It uses MOST of the RAM just for itself, leaving little left for apps and books. Your 20-50MB estimate is extremely short of reality, especially on the newer kindles.

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

The Kindle storage on the other hand varies from 2-4GB depending on the model. That is where your books and whatever else you keep in there is. However, as you note, when they tell you it's 2GB, and it's only 1.4GB, it's not just because of the fancy number explanations they give you about the bytes and rounding, etc, it's because they've allocated the remaining 600MB for the OS, drivers, firmware updates, and virtual memory (which the Kindles must have very little of). So when you open up that 50MB PDF file, it uses a little bit of your RAM just to open it, and a little bit of virtual memory/that allocated hard drive space to store those images until you either turn off the Kindle completely or it expires (depending on how Amazon handles that anyway). Think of it as your internet browser cache which saves most of the GUI of websites so it can render them faster as you navigate and go back to pages the next day.

I disagree. What you call "storage" is actually the "USB Drive" partition (/dev/mmcblk0p4 on the K4 and K5) of the onboard mmc memory storage device. The kindle does not even contain the hard drive that you mention above. Nor does it contain "virtual memory", which in linux exists in a swap file or swap partition. The kindle has neither of these, because virtual memory swap files are very hard on mmc devices and wear them out prematurely. That means that the very small amount of RAM not already occupied by the OS is all there is.

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

So when you get that error that your Kindle doesn't have enough memory to render the rest of the pages, it's because there is not enough space VIRTUALLY to handle the images and embedded text in that PDF. It's not a problem with Amazon bought ebooks because they have guidelines in place that don't let authors use images bigger than 127KB in size.

First, there is no virtual memory in the kindles. Second, the 127KB limit you refer to is the maximum image size allowed in "the Kindle File Format" (.mobi), which has nothing to do with the PDF files being discussed here. It would be helpful and much less confusing if you supplied supporting evidence, references, or links, instead of just claiming that I am "wrong". I would like to examine your evidence so that I can update my own personal knowledge base, if your information is true.

I have read the technical manuals from amazon, and the reference manuals from the chipset manufacturers, and the source code for all of the kindle models that I own (DX,DXG,K3,K4,K5). I have also written a significant base of original code that works on ALL of the eink kindle models, and is being used by other developers as well. I have also discovered jailbreak methods that are in reserve (shared with other developers) that will be published when existing known methods no longer work. I do not see any evidence that your information is better than mine (or even correct). Sorry.

[geekmaster]

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

It is an attitude like that which made me, as well as a lot of other people really hate our teachers in secondary school. You can read a book, but it doesn't mean you'll understand beyond what the text says, except what it does, especially in a dictionary.

"Teacher-hater"? I do not understand. My teachers were there to help me teach myself. They provided me with guidance, and they gave direction to my self-studies. In most cases they appreciated that I finished reading the provided materials in the first two weeks of class and they provided additional reading materials and advanced studies. In the rare case that a teacher did not let me advance ahead of the rest of the class, I had a difficult time with boredom and daydreaming (I had already read the book that the teacher was describing day after day), but I did not hate the teacher just because they did not understand me.

Thankfully, most teachers took the effort to teach me at my own pace (and often gave me extra work and extra priveledges such as a key to the science tool and supply storeroom so I could do my own experiments). I loved working with those teachers best. I did not understand until much later in life that some children did not have these learning opportunities available to them, and I feel sorry for that.

I try to help people young and old learn the things that I know and love whenever I can (despite my occasional attitude that some who do not understand me think of as arrogance, and I am sorry for that misunderstanding).

Anyway, back on topic, an ebook that has a large file size on the kindle USB drive is more likely to have "not enough memory" when trying to render pages to the display, than an ebook that has a smaller file size. That is all I was trying to say, when I was so rudely interrupted by the "experts".

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by geekmaster

Anyway, back on topic, an ebook that has a large file size on the kindle USB drive is more likely to have "not enough memory" when trying to render pages to the display, than an ebook that has a smaller file size.

I'm a little puzzled by this, GM. Surely all that matters is the size of the individual page, not the overall size of the file, is it not? All that's loaded into memory is the page currently being displayed, not the whole book.

[geekmaster]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm a little puzzled by this, GM. Surely all that matters is the size of the individual page, not the overall size of the file, is it not? All that's loaded into memory is the page currently being displayed, not the whole book.

The size of the file is indicative of the size of the page. Average page size = file size / number of pages. I originally asked about the file size, to get an idea of how much RAM may be required by that book.

Some books have very large pages, due either to graphic complexity (especially books drawn in a "comic book" style, and books that were not OCR'd where every page is a photo containing text). I have a large collection of PD books going back for decades, and some of them are of the "all images" format.

Memory issues with complex books are especially problematic on newer kindles, that have much larger OS software, and much less for the applications that render PDF files.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by geekmaster

The size of the file is indicative of the size of the page. Average page size = file size / number of pages.

What I meant was that a large file size can simply mean that the book has a large number of pages, not necessarily that each individual page has a large size. One has to consider both the size of the file AND the number of pages in the book. Simply looking at the file size in isolation is only giving you one of the variables in the equation.

[geekmaster]

Here is a simpler explanation about how the words "memory" and "storage" are COMMONLY used (in my experience):

As verbs, "memorizing" and "storing" are often used as synonyms. As nouns, "memory" and "storage" are often used as synonyms, indicating a place to store information for later use.

In common use by non-technical people, "memory" is all the stuff you know but are not thinking about now. In common use in computer literature, memory is all the information and data that a computer knows but is not currently processing (stored in CPU registers, RAM, and external archival storage hardware) AND the location used to store this information (including RAM memory, core memory, disk memory, drum memory, etc.), which adds to the confusion. Storage is the process of memorizing this information, and the place that it is stored (also called memory). When using these words it is necessary to include extra words to distinguish them from each other (such as RAM, flash, disk, etc.), because they ARE used in many disparate ways in the trade literature and documentation.

I hope that makes it a little less confusing, and demonstrates that I did initially use these words correctly when asking for information to help determine the cause of the "out of memory" condition when displaying PDF files.

Kindles (especially the newer models) have plenty of flash memory (the USB drive), but not enough RAM memory (especially when rendering large complex PDF files).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by geekmaster

The amazon ebook guidelines actually say that all submitted images must be AT LEAST 300 DPI (making them very large), so that amazon can accurately OCR them for searchable text. I do not know where you got your information, but I got mine from this amazon page: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...odeId=13685751
There may well be OTHER amazon guidelines about what ends up INSIDE finished ebooks, but the ebook submission guidlines say what to SUBMIT to amazon.

You have given a link to information about Amazon's Search Inside operation. This is for publishers providing PDFs of their print books so that customers can see samples of the interior pages and, indeed, search inside them.

This has no relation to the guidelines for their Kindle Direct Publishing operation. The limits for images for ebooks can be found here.

[geekmaster]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You have given a link to information about Amazon's Search Inside operation. This is for publishers providing PDFs of their print books so that customers can see samples of the interior pages and, indeed, search inside them.

This has no relation to the guidelines for their Kindle Direct Publishing operation. The limits for images for ebooks can be found here.

Thank you. I missed that when I was searching. Google gives different results for different people. That is why I asked in my previous post.

So it appears that you need to submit ebooks in two formats to amazon, one with large images to be scanned for "search inside" functions, and another with 127KB images in the final ebook format. Is that correct?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by geekmaster

So it appears that you need to submit ebooks in two formats to amazon, one with large images to be scanned for "search inside" functions, and another with 127KB images in the final ebook format. Is that correct?

No. Amazon Search inside is a scheme for PAPER books (as mentioned in my previous comment), not ebooks.

If you want to publish ebooks through Amazon, you just need to submit once through the kdp.amazon.com site.

[geekmaster]

We are getting more reports in the dev corner (including PMs) of K5 (touch) having more cases of PDF files that report "out of memory" errors for some PDF files. Apparently the new 5.1.0 firmware has even LESS available free RAM. This would be less of a problem if there was some virtual memory available, but it is not safe to store virtual memory swap files on flash devices due to premature write wear problems (especially on nearly-full devices which have little space left for write wear-levelling). We can just look forward to this problem getting worse with time, as new firmware versions grow in size.

The new K4 4.1.0 firmware is also larger and uses more RAM.

Unfortunately, you cannot easily increase the RAM, because the CPU is limited to 256MB.

[pdurrant]

Since the 5.1 and 4.1 firmware are the ones that introduced (I think) support for the KF8 format, I'm not surprised that they take up a bit more RAM.

I suspect that Amazon aren't very worried about PDF support.

But perhaps they'll spend some time on optimisation. 128MB or 256MB is actually quite a lot, if used carefully.

[geekmaster]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

No. Amazon Search inside is a scheme for PAPER books (as mentioned in my previous comment), not ebooks.

If you want to publish ebooks through Amazon, you just need to submit once through the kdp.amazon.com site.

The web page at that URL does not restrict the size of images submitted for publishing. It just says that "the Kindle File format" (mobi?) has a limit of 127KB pictures (previous 63KB). We are discussing PDF files here, in which full-page images are poorly compressed and very large (byte-wise), especially when created with a "PDF printer driver". This is why professional-created PDF files often contain vector-artwork (algorithmically rendered from a display list) instead of bitmap photos.

If amazon squeezes a full-page JPEG file down to 127KB to fit it into a .mobi file, it will lose so much detail as to make embedded text unreadable in most cases.

Comparing the maximum image size allowed inside a .mobi file to "out of memory" errors when displaying a PDF file is comparing "apples to oranges", so not relevant to solving this problem.

EDIT: Many of my PDF files contain large schematics (unfortunately, usually bitmaps instead of vector art). Compressing those too much would render the electronic component labels unreadable. They tend to be very large files even when they do not have many pages. I do not have any PDF files that follow the amazon .mobi image size limit guidelines.

UPDATE: Here is a possible SOLUTION to this "PDF out of memory" problem: Many PDF files are designed for high PRINT quality. For onscreen viewing (especially on a Kindle), it would be worthwhile to shrink the PDF file using a "PDF Optimizer". There are many apps that can optimize PDF files, from expensive commercial apps, to free apps such as linux "pdfopt". These PDF optimizers can reduce the amount of disk space needed to hold a PDF file AND can also reduce the amount of RAM needed to display the file.

There are other PDF reader apps that do a better job of memory management and may not have this problem. Unfortunately, you may need to jailbreak your kindle to use them.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

No. Amazon Search inside is a scheme for PAPER books (as mentioned in my previous comment), not ebooks.

If you want to publish ebooks through Amazon, you just need to submit once through the kdp.amazon.com site.

I'm seeing more and more 'Search inside' functions on Kindle edition pages at Amazon. Whether the function is simply borrowed from the pages for the print editions I can't say.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I'm seeing more and more 'Search inside' functions on Kindle edition pages at Amazon. Whether the function is simply borrowed from the pages for the print editions I can't say.

[OT]
Search Inside for Kindle ebooks just uses the text and formatting of the Kindle ebook. Amazon have access to the full electronic text, after all.

It's only for paper books that publishers need to submit a PDF version. Amazon don't scan paper books to get them in the Search Inside programme.