Do you pirate books and why?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

So if I upload an eBook to a torrent site with the (trivially removable) DRM still intact... that's OK?

Actually, removing DRM from a book if it's not licensed to you is NOT trivial. The DRM removal tools all rely on a knowledge of the encryption key. None will operate without that key. All that you'll achieve by uploading such a book is:

1. A file that can be traced back to you by its DRM.
2. A file that nobody else but you can remove the DRM from.

I really wouldn't recommend doing this.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Actually, removing DRM from a book if it's not licensed to you is NOT trivial. The DRM removal tools all rely on a knowledge of the encryption key. None will operate without that key.

Technicalities aside, would you agree that doing so is equivalent to what digital libraries do? Both are unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material, but as long as there is DRM on it, then it's OK.

[HarryT]

No, it's not the same at all. The library is authorised to distribute the book; you are not.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's not the same at all. The library is authorised to distribute the book; you are not.

Libraries are NOT authorized distributors under copyright law. They are not required to sign any sort of contract/license with the copyright owner giving them permission to include the book in their library.

[HarryT]

I'm slightly puzzled your assertion. It's the copyright holder's free choice whether or not to sign up with Overdrive (or whatever other library distributed they go with). By doing that they are assenting to have the library distribute the book, are they not? Some publishers choose not to sign up with Overdrive because they don't want to have their ebooks in libraries.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Libraries are NOT authorized distributors under copyright law. They are not required to sign any sort of contract/license with the copyright owner giving them permission to include the book in their library.

The first sale doctrine specifically grants libraries the right to lend their materials.

That lendees may remove the DRM and keep a copy is irrelevant. They can also photocopy or scan a paper book they've borrowed.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

The first sale doctrine specifically grants libraries the right to lend their materials.

That lendees may remove the DRM and keep a copy is irrelevant. They can also photocopy or scan a paper book they've borrowed.

But in this case, the uploader is equivalent to the librarian. The lendee is the downloader, which is not what I'm asking about.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm slightly puzzled your assertion. It's the copyright holder's free choice whether or not to sign up with Overdrive (or whatever other library distributed they go with). By doing that they are assenting to have the library distribute the book, are they not? Some publishers choose not to sign up with Overdrive because they don't want to have their ebooks in libraries.

The fact that Publishers are now allowed a choice as to whether or not Libraries get access to their content is just sad.

[HarryT]

The author (or publisher) has signed a contract with Overdrive to allow Overdrive to distribute their books through the library system. What problem do you perceive with this?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The fact that Publishers are now allowed a choice as to whether or not Libraries get access to their content is just sad.

Hang on a minute, now you're contradicting yourself. Half an hour ago you were claiming that libraries were infringing copyright by distributing ebooks without the copyright holder's permission. Now you claim it's "sad" that they do in fact have to have the copyright holder's permission for the distribution

You can't have it both ways. Do you want the distribution to be carried out with permission, or don't you?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Hang on a minute, now you're contradicting yourself. Half an hour ago you were claiming that libraries were infringing copyright by distributing ebooks without the copyright holder's permission. Now you claim it's "sad" that they do in fact have to have the copyright holder's permission for the distribution

Libraries distribute pBooks under the first-sale doctrine, and it can be done regardless of whether or not the copyright owner agrees. I said they were unauthorized distributors, I didn't say they were infringing copyright (technically they are, but it's considered fair use).

The fact that libraries now only distribute eBooks with the copyright owners permission is sad. From what I've seen, a lot of libraries are really concerned with this. Imagine a future where eBooks are the primary media, that means that Publishers could kill off Libraries at a whim. That's not a good thing for the public.

I don't think we know legally how it would hold up if they tried to distribute eBooks without permission. I'm not aware of a library trying it and/or having a court rule on it.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The author (or publisher) has signed a contract with Overdrive to allow Overdrive to distribute their books through the library system. What problem do you perceive with this?

The problem is that Publishers may have the ability to deny their content to Libraries. They never had that ability under the pBook model.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Libraries distribute pBooks under the first-sale doctrine, and it can be done regardless of whether or not the copyright owner agrees.

In the UK, the Copyright Act specifically grants libraries the right to distribute (paper) books. As compensation for the fact that an author no longer has the right to withhold a book from library distribution, the "Public Lending Right" (PLR) payment was brought in, which pays an author a small amount of money every time one of their books is borrowed from a library.

Perhaps a solution to the eBook issue is to introduce a payment similar to - or an extension of - the PLR for eBook loans from libraries?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The problem is that Publishers may have the ability to deny their content to Libraries. They never had that ability under the pBook model.

There's no "may have" about it. Several of the major publishers do not permit their eBooks to be lent in libraries.

[ChrisBarker]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why don't you simply buy the paper book in that case? Do you think that the fact that the eBook is more expensive than the paper book makes it legitimate to simply take the book without paying for it at all?

I'm with Duiker on that one. I once purchased a paper back so I could participate in a book club. Problem is I hadn't read much for a while and I should probably get glasses for reading so I downloaded a version and read in on my iPod touch. With the scalable text etc I ripped through the book and deleted it after, I still have the paperback.

It was technically illegal and was done for convenience but lead to me buying a kindle and a large amount of books legally since. As for the paperbooks I already own, when I feel like reading them again I will look at the e-price and if reasonable will purchase again but if it's the price of a brand new paper back (especially if it's an old book I will download it on the never-never).

Shogun by James Clavell was an example, I own the paperback but it used to be something like £8 for the e-book so I downloaded it from the darknet and read it again. If they priced it sensibly (around £3 or £4) then I would have brought it again.

The book market is evolving whether it likes it or not, and I'll be voting with my wallet.