Do you pirate books and why?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlittle

I see that the poll has been changed to be anonymous now.

Moderator error.

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Here's the thing. Some of us believe that authors deserve to be paid for their work. We don't deprive authors of their livelihood because we aren't technically capable of stealing their books, but because we like to read, and so we like to reward authors for their hard work in writing the books that we read. It's a concept called "honesty".

For the same reason, they will never borrow a book from a friend, buy a used one, read the plot summary on Wikipedia or have someone describe the plot to them...

Unless we want to appeal to the "first sale doctrine", which, in a way, can be extended to torrent "book lending"...

And I still wonder how can I pay an author who died 69 years ago.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Format C:

For the same reason, they will never borrow a book from a friend, buy a used one, read the plot summary on Wikipedia or have someone describe the plot to them...

Perhaps you disagree, but I think that most people would make a moral distinction between illegally downloading a book, and reading a summary of the plot on Wikipedia.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Here's the thing. Some of us believe that authors deserve to be paid for their work. We don't deprive authors of their livelihood because we aren't technically capable of stealing their books, but because we like to read, and so we like to reward authors for their hard work in writing the books that we read. It's a concept called "honesty".

Frankly, I have never purchased a book with the thought in mind that I'm compensating the author for his or her work, any more than I've purchased a TV set or a pair of shoes or any other commodity with the thought that I'm compensating somebody somewhere for work performed.

[Belfaborac]

Exactly. In principle I agree with you Harry, but ultimately you state your views on this in a way that is too black and white, too categorical, for me to be able to relate to. The world, after all, consists mainly of various shades of murky greys.

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps you disagree, but I think that most people would make a moral distinction between illegally downloading a book, and reading a summary of the plot on Wikipedia.

The difference is in all the "illegally" adverb.
In both cases the reader is getting the author's ideas without compensating him.

What if their legal status was the same?

[Quexos]

You guys are still debating the issue of legally and illegally downloaded ebooks?
I don't think anyone can make a case that would be either for or against such downloads that is 100% satisfying and would bring the opposite view down.
There are pros and cons to both sides. Not everything that is legal is morally right and not everything that is illegal is morally wrong as has been shown throughout history.
The only objective thing one could say on this issue in my opinion is that in the end it's comes down to being a matter of whose interests are being upheld.
"Legal" serves the interests of some at a cost to others and vice versa with "illegal".

[MikeOxlittle]

Interested in seeing the opinions on a situation like this ....

You pirate a book that is sold for $10. You read the book and enjoy it and then go onto the internet and proclaim what a great book it is (forum posts, review sites, blogs, social media sites, etc.).

10 random people, who before, had no idea the book existed, see your comments and become interested in your enthusiasm for it and go pay the $10 price. They then spread their enthusiasm for the book and more people become aware of the book and purchase it and so forth.

In a case like this, can piracy be considered a good thing?

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlittle

Interested in seeing the opinions on a situation like this ....

In a case like this, can piracy be considered a good thing?

Let's change your little story except that you didn't pirate the book -- you shoplifted it.

It you really give all the free publicity suggested, your shoplifting probably did benefit the creators of the book. So what? To me, it is still wrong.

The implication of your post is that morality is solely a matter of whether anyone is harmed. If that's what you think, sure, piracy can be seen as a good thing.

A big problem with your hypothetical is that the piracy comes before the reading and the posting. What happens when you read the pirated book and find it to be a fine work from a purely literary standpoint, but hate the author's perspective on life?

[JSWolf]

These days, some of the pirating is done because of the price. $14.99 for an eBook is a lot of money. These are people who don't buy hardcover and try to find books at the lowest cost possible. Not everyone can afford $14.99 for an eBook. Even $12.99 is a lot. So what we have is the publishers pricing eBooks out of some people's ability to pay for them. So rather then pay what they cannot afford, they try to get it for free.

Some people pirate in order to try out an author given the high prices. If an eBook interests someone yet the price is $14.99 or $12.99 and the author is unknown (not read), then it may be pirated to check out if the author is liked.

Remember the original Napster caused sales of CDs to go up because people needed source to share and they found songs online they liked and wanted the full CD. Plus, back then, a lot of rips were not all that good. Napster caused CD sales to rise and the RIAA decided to shut it down.

What I do sometimes is split the cost of an eBook.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Let's change your little story except that you didn't pirate the book -- you shoplifted it.

It you really give all the free publicity suggested, your shoplifting probably did benefit the creators of the book. So what? To me, it is still wrong.

But you simply can't equate the theft of a physical object with the copying of a file.

The implication of your post is that morality is solely a matter of whether anyone is harmed. If that's what you think, sure, piracy can be seen as a good thing.

A big problem with your hypothetical is that the piracy comes before the reading and the posting. What happens when you read the pirated book and find it to be a fine work from a purely literary standpoint, but hate the author's perspective on life?

Morality is indeed largely a matter of whether anyone is harmed. I think one could argue that in the case of piracy, the harm is perhaps mainly to the person who pirates, rather than to authors or publishers or book sellers.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

These days, some of the pirating is done because of the price.

Put it that way, and it's undeniable.

These are people who don't buy hardcover and try to find books at the lowest cost possible.

That's me.

Not everyone can afford $14.99 for an eBook. Even $12.99 is a lot.

Yep. The median income worldwide — the amount that is dead middle between the least and the highest amounts — is $850 US Dollars (USD).*

The median for people literate in English is a lot higher, but hundreds of millions of people who speak English (especially as a second language) could not afford these prices, any more than they could afford prices in the range you recommend. With luck, they have access to a public library or village reading room.


Buying your own book is not like buying a loaf of bread. Now, the price of that loaf has gone up a lot in the last few years, and I consider it a real problem. The fact that I have to use the library, or, in rare cases, wait a few years and buy a used copy when those go down to a couple dollars -- not a problem. As far as I am concerned, a book, for my personal ownership, is a luxury good.

Checking, I see that Amazon has the current #1 NY Times non-fiction bestseller at $9.99 for the eBook, but $16.77 in paper. Since you are making up your plausible fact, I'm going to make up a plausible fact and say that a higher ratio of the eBooks are pirated than the paper books are shoplifted. This is because while price has a little to do with it, chances of getting caught, and social acceptability, is a much bigger factor.

_______________________
* EDITED: Come to think of it, this is an incorrect definition of median, the amount where half the people are above and half below. My link may not be trustworthy, but the general point is true -- most people on the planet can't even afford a dollar or two for a non-essential purchase such as a book.

[xg4bx]

"Shoplifting is victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark."

i've admitted to my own piracy in the past. i don't do it that often but when i do i'd say a good 80% of it ends up turning into a legitimate purchase. often i will go on to purchase an authors entire bibliography (in print if applicable) so 1 pilfered book went on to become me giving the author far more money. certainly more money than it normally would have considering that chances are i probably didn't know the author existed until i saw them on a pirate site.


oddly i feel more guilty about buying a used book than i do about pirating it. maybe its because i have a material good that nobody got money from rather than a copied file of 1s and 0s on my hard drive.

[maxiart]

Something that I'd guess doesn't help matters very much is ebooks being priced the same as physical books. Sorry, but it doesn't make very much sense at all.

Anyway, I've never been able to understand morals and the like, so I guess I should just stop being around this thread...

[plib]

Originally Posted by Format C:

And I still wonder how can I pay an author who died 69 years ago.

Because Disney et. al. have bribed convinced politicians to believe that a big eared mouse is more valuable to society than life saving drugs and life changing inventions. And you must have noticed the "progress of useful Arts" in his depiction over the years. He doesn't look or sound a bit like he used to in 1929.