Waterstones (UK biggest bookseller) to sell Amazon's Kindle book reader

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

That's what book shops require: give people e.g. an usb stick with a little program that leads them step by step through the set up. It's the simplicity that is the Kindle's great advantage and competing products do have to be comparably simple.

As long as they require a computer to plug that usb stick into, they aren't going to be.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

This "conspiracy" thing is an American concept that is mostly alien to other jurisdictions, unless we are talking about terrorism or mafia related crimes etc.

American law is not all that subtle about crime.
Subtlety is for judges, not prosecutors.

Now, since the Conspiracy Six are being charged in american courts for violating american law, the american definition is what holds.

Rule of thumb: when multiple perps coordinate before, during, or after a crime it is deemed a conspiracy, regardless of whether it is a violent crime or "merely" a civil violation.

For a longer, more authoritative definition:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/conspiracy

An agreement between two or more persons to engage jointly in an unlawful or criminal act, or an act that is innocent in itself but becomes unlawful when done by the combination of actors.

So it doesn't matter if the act is legal for one actor, just that it be illegal for more than one.

The law seeks to punish conspiracy as a substantive crime separate from the intended crime because when two or more persons agree to commit a crime, the potential for criminal activity increases, and as a result, the danger to the public increases. Therefore, the very act of an agreement with criminal intent (along with an overt act, where required) is considered sufficiently dangerous to warrant charging conspiracy as an offense separate from the intended crime.

In this case, it is not *generally* illegal for a company to abandon a market, auction off its market assets, and sign a joint deal with another company. Until the Brusselcrats start making noises, presumption of innocence suggests it is not illegal in this *particular*. (Plenty of time before now and Sept for them to act.)

Now, I'll grant that if Amazon and Waterstones were teaming up to sell *print* books, there would likely be room to complain. But the deal is about ebooks, so...

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

American law is not all that subtle about crime.
Now, since the Conspiracy Six are being charged in american courts for violating american law, the american definition is what holds.

Well, I hate to break it you but this is about what's happening in the UK and US law is irrelevant. The same is true for the probe by the EU commission into ebook prices.

[carpetmojo]

Originally Posted by elcreative

What gives you the idea that Waterstones couldn't sell Sonys... they sold EVERY one that they got (apart from the odd dud), they just ran out because Sony failed to supply them...

Absolutely correct - employees told me they could sell all they had, but they couldn't get regular supplies, and cooperation from Sony was awful - they were happy to contact Sony with complaints etc... for customers,but never got support back.

And, only one person ever seemed to know how to use and demo readers.
By the end, they were selling all sorts of readers, and not very well, I'm afraid.

But I think the Sony relationship was a sad disaster, mainly, IMO because of the lack of "interest" shown by the manufacturers.

But this Amazon deal seems very one-sided - I really only see a plus in it for one partner, and it's not the minor one.
Above all, I can't see it costing Amazon a great deal from their side - because they don't really need it.

[fjtorres]

Daunt explains himself:
http://www.thebookseller.com/news/da...terstones.html

On opting with Amazon and the Kindle, Daunt said it had been a choice between other devices “which have very little traction in this country”, and developing a Waterstones’ own device, which Daunt said the company had had “a highly limited” chance of doing. He said: “Effectively we felt we had very little choice but to do this.”

Answering a question as to why, in doing a deal with Amazon to sell the Kindle, he had "given in" to the etailer's near monopoly rather than asking the authorities to investigate it, Daunt said: "They could still investigate it. We were utterly irrelevant to the sale of digital, and we had to become relevant. My job is to choose which books to sell to our customers, and applying the same principle to digital readers . . .

"As you know, we were selling other devices when I arrived, and I kicked them out because, frankly, it was embarrassing. I mean they do sell multiple devices in places like John Lewis, there are all these Kindles lining up alongside one Kobo. For the moment, we are keeping it sensible. We will see how it evolves."

Translation: His job is to sell books, print and digital. And if Kindle is what people are buying in the realm of digital, then Kindle is what he'll sell. He's going where the money is.

No different than Best Buy or WalMart--retailers of CDs and DVDs--carrying iPods and iPads, really. Even if iTunes competes with their CD/DVD sales. Smart retailers go where the money is and it sounds like in the UK the money is currently in Kindle.

[stonetools]

A little more context:

Earlier in the talk, he said: “Clearly we will be selling Kindles in the autumn, which are sold by Amazon who is our deadliest foe in all other respects, hence a certain amount of disquiet among publishing colleagues and booksellers, to a much lesser degree, and the general public.” On opting with Amazon and the Kindle, Daunt said it had been a choice between other devices “which have very little traction in this country”, and developing a Waterstones’ own device, which Daunt said the company had had “a highly limited” chance of doing. He said: “Effectively we felt we had very little choice but to do this.”

“Amazon is the dominant force, it has cut a swathe and transformed our industry . . . It has a basic monopoly on digital reading and this will increase it and indeed perpetuate it and all of us have our doubts about it. In meeting our customers' needs, we felt we had very little choice but to do it.”
“Our view is that people are choosing to read digitally, our job is to sell reading and if they want to do so digitally we need to provide that to them and above all else keep bookshops relevant.”

His statements doesn't really seem to answer the question: what is Waterstones doing other than making itself a showroom for Amazon? Doesn't that cannibalize their business long term?

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by stonetools

His statements doesn't really seem to answer the question: what is Waterstones doing other than making itself a showroom for Amazon? Doesn't that cannibalize their business long term?

What he is saying is that people are going to buy Kindles anyway, there is nothing he can do to stop that.
You can buy them in electronic shops, mobile phone shops and even supermarkets.
Waterstones selling Kindles isn't going to make a huge difference one way or another to Amazon's domination in the UK, and at least they might make a bit of money from it.

[ProfCrash]

And it is not like Waterstone's was not trying to find a different partner. We know that they were talking to Barnes and Noble. Something happened there that killed that deal. So BN blew an oppertunity to move into the UK and challenge Amazon.

I know that some people are into making Amazons dominance into a bad thing for everyone. In the long run, it might be. I doubt it because Amazon knows that people shop with them due to low prices and great customer service. Jacking up prices runs counter to that and would cause them to lose ground. There are challengers in many different industries, ebooks and ereaders being just one, who are looking to pounce on any weakness.

Whether people like it or not, Amazon did not get to be were it is in the ereader market because of foul play. When Amazon entered the market the only other main stream, and really it was not all that main stream, was the Sony. People here knew of other readers but the vast majority of consumers did not. Heck, the vast majority of consumers, myself included, did not even know of the Sony.

Amazon choose to enter the market at that time, with a well developed device that allowed people to download books straight without a computer. They were able to set prices lower then hardback books on release day and save people money that way. Newspaper subscriptions were less through the Kindle then they were in paper. They sold the device based on what it could do and how it could save money.

It turned into a popular niche item, picked up mainstream supporters (Hello Oprah), gained momentum, and dominance. No one has been able to knock it from that spot because they have not been able to build a better machine (most of the major ereaders do pretty much the same thing and work well) or a better bookstore. Even with the publishers doing their darndest to stop Amazon's dominance, Amazon remains the dominant player in the US and is growing into dominance in other countries.

BN has for some reason botched an international release. They had a great oppertunity with Waterstones but was not able to capitalize. It is hard to see how they would break into the UK market with any success now. Amazon is the major player in South America and Africa because it is the only one that sells there easily. Sony and Kobo are international but Sony's are more expensive then Kindles every where outside the US and Kobo is still limited internationally.

Amazon did not go out and club the competition to death. Amazon developed a great marketing plan that filled a void first in the US and now is filling the void globally. Waterstones knows that it can make money selling Kindles. The deal they struck makes it sound like that make money off of books sold on Kindles that are bought at Waterstones. It will be interesting to see what their ebook store looks like, if it sells epub and mobi. But they knew that this was something that they need to do and Amazon had the best deal on the table.

You can complain about the deal or you can look at Sony, BN, and Kobo and shake your head and ask what the hell are they thinking.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

What he is saying is that people are going to buy Kindles anyway, there is nothing he can do to stop that.
You can buy them in electronic shops, mobile phone shops and even supermarkets.
Waterstones selling Kindles isn't going to make a huge difference one way or another to Amazon's domination in the UK, and at least they might make a bit of money from it.

I guess the point is here is that if you are going to get screwed anyway , you may as well get paid.

Since Amazon apparently outbid BN, my guess is that Waterstones probably got paid a boatload of money. Hope Mr. Waterstones CEO invests it well. Look for Waterstones to start retailing stuff other than books in the near future

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Since Amazon apparently outbid BN, my guess is that Waterstones probably got paid a boatload of money. Hope Mr. Waterstones CEO invests it well. Look for Waterstones to start retailing stuff other than books in the near future

Well the arrangement isn't exclusive:

Waterstones could sell other devices instore alongside the Kindle, as m.d. James Daunt said the arrangement with Amazon is not exclusive.
Speaking at the Hay Festival Business Breakfast panel this morning (3rd June), Daunt said: "We are not selling other devices but if there was another device that we thought was better then we would."

But why would Waterstones want to partner with B&N?
Trying to roll the Nook out to the UK market would be a hugely uphill task. It has no name recognition, and neither do B&N. There is one absolutely dominant competitor in the Kindle, and several other competitors as well (Kobo, Sony plus off-brand).
They would have to dedicate floor space, and train staff, on a product line that has little chance of being profitable. They've been down that road before with the Sonys.

Speaking to The Bookseller after the event, Daunt said he would consider selling other devices "in the future", if customer demand was there. He said: "As you know, we were selling other devices when I arrived, and I kicked them out because, frankly, it was embarrassing.

Far less effort will be required to sell Kindles, because they already have mindshare, and people know what they do, and they will sell more of them.
If B&N had moved into the UK market before Amazon, they would have had a good chance. If they have moved in before Kobo, they might have carved out a niche. Now?

[stonetools]

If B&N had moved into the UK market before Amazon, they would have had a good chance. If they have moved in before Kobo, they might have carved out a niche. Now?

I agree that BN is screwed, UK wise. Too late to the party.
Frankly, it may be a good decision on the part of Waterstones. Indeed, it might have been the least bad option, despite the harmful long term consequences.

[ProfCrash]

I think BN is screwed globally. Kindle and Kobo will dominate the international market for the near future.

[soulfuldog]

The more I read of it the more I think Waterstones have taken the only real option they could. They don't really have anything to lose since they, in their own words, were utterly irrelevant. This way they might make some gains, and it's not an exclusive deal, and there is nothing to stop them changing their plans again in future.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I guess the point is here is that if you are going to get screwed anyway , you may as well get paid.

Since Amazon apparently outbid BN, my guess is that Waterstones probably got paid a boatload of money. Hope Mr. Waterstones CEO invests it well. Look for Waterstones to start retailing stuff other than books in the near future

Look in Waterstones with actual eyes... calendars, diaries, cards, notebooks, bookmarks, coffee, oddments and other small items been on sale for decades...

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by elcreative

Look in Waterstones with actual eyes... calendars, diaries, cards, notebooks, bookmarks, coffee, oddments and other small items been on sale for decades...

Well, expect a LOT more of that-DVDS, video games, electronics- Waterstones may look like Target , in a year or two...