Spanish Booksellers' Assoc. suing Amazon for not respecting the fixed price of books

[stonetools]

You seem to be implying that a business *shouldn't be allowed* to underprice his competition because somehow that isn't fair. Pretty naive. Should me mandate bookstores in every little town because it's unfair that the big towns have them and they don't? Should be outlaw Walmart because they're sometimes small local business are closing?

If you can't compete, you don't survive. I *really* is that simple.
__________________

I'm not implying that. I am implying that just because a particular store is "winning" doesn't mean that they got to that result fair and square. It's more complicated than that. Also too, not every market outcome is necessarily "right" or best for everyone.
As I said, this is a complex issue. Simple ,"bumper stick type" responses like "If you can't compete, you don't survive" don't cut it-they just short circuit further thought. What does ? Don't know yet, but I know more thought is needed. I'm not really knocking you, either. Its kind of easy to think what's best for you is best for all. I do it too.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Apparently there is no room in your thinking for the idea that the playing field is unfairly tilted in favor of Amazon, but let that pass.
Suppose the independent book sellers take your suggestion and just go out of business, is that a better world for everyone?
Sure if you are one of the entitled folks who can afford a computer, an Internet connection , and (multiple) reading devices. What if you don't have any of that , but just want to buy a book from a local bookstore? Sucks then, doesn't it?
Try to think beyond the Mobile Read bubble just a little bit, please.

You must be one of the entitled folks to be able to afford the prices of the independent local book stores. And yes, sometimes a business model becomes obsolete and there are some who wish those businesses could stay around. Unfortunately most people don't want them enough to support them. The world moves on.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

And yes, sometimes a business model becomes obsolete and there are some who wish those businesses could stay around. Unfortunately most people don't want them enough to support them. The world moves on.

And some companies keep a tight enough grip on their costs and the changes in the world that they can adapt to changes. Those that don't get left behind.
Nobody gets a veto on change; entropy rules.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Here in Portland, Oregon we have Powells Books. Huge independent bookseller who's doing good business. Amazon doesn't seem to be hurting them.

Powells management blamed last year's round of layoffs on the unprecedented, rapidly changing nature of the book industry. Amazon is obviously a big part of that.

It's true that Amazon itself has had repeated rounds of layouts, but that's just Amazon being Amazon, rather than an indication of declining business.

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Blaming Amazon for your troubles isn't going to solve anything.

You may be right, but given the severe, unadulterated, and worsening depression Spain is in, I'm going to give the victims some slack.

[plib]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

You may be right, but given the severe, unadulterated, and worsening depression Spain is in, I'm going to give the victims some slack.

If by "victims" you mean the people who brought the lawsuit then it's precisely those kind of people, and that kind of thinking, that created Spain's depression in the first place.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by plib

If by "victims" you mean the people who brought the lawsuit then it's precisely those kind of people, and that kind of thinking, that created Spain's depression in the first place.

Yes, and Spain is in a situation where they cannot afford to cut themselves some slack. (doing that got themselves into this mess). They need to do everything right to get back on their feet.

[plib]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Yes, and Spain is in a situation where they cannot afford to cut themselves some slack. (doing that got themselves into this mess). They need to do everything right to get back on their feet.

I think collapsing Spanish banks caused by collapsing Spanish real estate and 25 % unemployment have a lot more to do with declining book sales from discretionary spending than Amazon does.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

And some companies keep a tight enough grip on their costs and the changes in the world that they can adapt to changes. Those that don't get left behind.
Nobody gets a veto on change; entropy rules.

And maybe some businesses go out of business, despite being well run, because the playing field is unfairly tilted against them. You can't simply conclude that just because a company goes out of business that it is poorly run or employing the wrong business model. That's why more analysis is needed. What we're getting here is slogans and stereotypes.
"Entropy rules?" Give me a break.
Now it maybe that "Nothing can be done." But if so, we are losing a lot. Look at the passing of record stores. I discovered more new music in an afternoon of browsing in a record store than I have in 10 years on the Internet. Browsing in a B&M book store tends to be just better for discovering new stuff.
Then of course there is whole economic argument. How much does Amazon contribute to the Spanish economy or building up local Spanish infrastructure? My guess is zero.
If you think in slogans, you miss these points.

[plib]

Originally Posted by stonetools

If you think in slogans, you miss these points.

If you think in blinkers, you tend to miss the point also.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by plib

If by "victims" you mean the people who brought the lawsuit then it's precisely those kind of people, and that kind of thinking, that created Spain's depression in the first place.

Since I agree with what you wrote in #22, this confuses me a bit.

This is the first time I've seen Spain's depression blamed on either litigiousness or price fixing. The most commonly claimed culprit is too much private debt AKA the real estate bubble, as you have already noted.

Germany also has fixed book prices, and they are doing relatively well.

[plib]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Since I agree with what you wrote in #22, this confuses me a bit.

This is the first time I've seen Spain's depression blamed on either litigiousness or price fixing. The most commonly claimed culprit is too much private debt AKA the real estate bubble.

Germany also has fixed book prices, and they are doing relatively well.

Not litigiousness or price fixing but an environment that actively obstructs change, labour laws that make changes in a business nearly impossible and a culture of cronyism and corruption that is coming home to roost. All of those were factors in the creation of the bubble, along with debt granted by the truckload, low interest rates and a perception that nothing was ever going to change for the worse.

And if it does then it has to be someone else's fault, hence the lawsuit.

[Top100EbooksRank]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Germany also has fixed book prices, and they are doing relatively well.

Yup.

Spain, France and Germany are the 3 major European countries that has fixed book prices.

Not sure about others.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by andreabc

Oh yes, many books are very expensive over here. That also means that the ebook (if available) is actually "cheaper".

One (extreme) example: A Dance with Dragons is going to cost 46€ in hardcover and 38€ in paperback (coming out 3 weeks later).

That would guarantee that I would go looking for ways around geo restrictions. Those prices are insane. Try lowering them and getting more business. Profits and tax revenue increase.

This is not the same as the US indie bookstore issues. Those differences were far smaller. This is just pure stupidity on the part of the bookstore owners, government, and publishers.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by plib

If by "victims" you mean the people who brought the lawsuit then it's precisely those kind of people, and that kind of thinking, that created Spain's depression in the first place.

Victims my ass. If you are charging those insane prices for books, you are limiting your customer base. Especially during a massive depression. Cut back on the price, $21 at BN in the US sure seems to move a good deal of GRR Martin's book. Somehow or another I think close to €50 is a bit overpriced.

It is a basic principle of economics, price things were you can move the most of a good and make a profit. I think Spanish booksellers and the folks who set book prices missed that day in class.

Drop Your prices, decrease the tax, sell more books, make more money, collect more taxes.

[andreabc]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

That would guarantee that I would go looking for ways around geo restrictions. Those prices are insane.

I'm thinking it won't be long for someone to realize that there's another Spanish edition coming out in August for the international market (10€ w/free shipping from The Book Depository).