Waterstones (UK biggest bookseller) to sell Amazon's Kindle book reader

[K. Molen]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

...a survey of only 46,000 Canadians doesn't seem like a very big sampling.

It seems pretty big to me. Keep in mind that we only have one tenth of the U.S. population, and according to Gallup a typical national poll of theirs uses only 1,000 people:

Originally Posted by Gallup.com

When respondents to be interviewed are selected at random, every adult has an equal probability of falling into the sample. The typical sample size for a Gallup poll, either a traditional stand-alone poll or one night's interviewing from Gallup's Daily tracking, is 1,000 national adults with a margin of error of ±4 percentage points.

Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/101872/ho...ling-work.aspx

[ProfCrash]

That is a huge sample size. When I ran a surevey research lab, most studies wanted 1,000 participants.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I've heard talk of maybe Waterstones in future offering deals whereby Waterstones print books are bundled wiith Amazon ebooks.

I saw that somewhere (can't remember where), and the first thing I thought was "would that be allowed under agency pricing?". I imagine the answer is no, but I know the EU was investigating the agency model, so maybe that won't be relevant for long.

[soulfuldog]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Some analysis from Time Carmody:

LINK

That's a pretty interesting article. It all seems pretty logical, except perhaps for the long-term thinking of Waterstones. Although as it's not exclusive, I suppose in the long-term they could forge partnerships with whoever they want or develop their own e-reader in future. It's all about trying to embrace the ebook market right now for them.

It's scary how dominant this could make the Kindle in the UK though, considering it already seems to hold the no.1 position anyway.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by K. Molen

It seems pretty big to me. Keep in mind that we only have one tenth of the U.S. population, and according to Gallup a typical national poll of theirs uses only 1,000 people:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

That is a huge sample size. When I ran a surevey research lab, most studies wanted 1,000 participants.

I'll take your word for it. 42,000 out of a population of over 33 million seemed really small to me, but I know nothing about these things. 1,000 seems very small.

[ProfCrash]

As someone else said, most Gallup polls are based on 1,000 people.as long as the sample is representative it is more than enough to get good data.

[carpetmojo]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

One (minor) benefit for Amazon of this deal is they get 300 B&M stores to carry their pbooks in the UK.
If nobody else wants them, they'll be by default Waterstone's exclusives.
It'll be interesting if they'll be doing other B&M deals elsewhere...

But there would, presumably, be a reason nobody else wants them ?
Like, "that'll never sell", perhaps?
To have something to sell that nobody else wants, (therefore "exclusive" to Waterstones) doesn't sound like a desperately sure-fire recipe for success....

Without knowing what exactly in this deal convinced the confirmed anti-Amazon Daunt to roll over with his paws in the air, with a big soppy smile, we're whistling in the dark, aren't we.
But, as an early Waterstones supporter, who saw them slowly become more like the competition - and them more like Waterstones, don't forget - I just cannot see the plus here.
It certainly will baffle many who still stuck with Waterstones, because they saw it as an independent, and I'm sure they'll lose some of those.
But obviously this embracing of digital is seen as a way to bring back the glory days with a new client base. Trouble is, I think the new prospective client base they aim for, is a little more clued up than it's more traditional lot - a lot of 'em will of 'em belong to MR for a start !
No, for me something just doesn't add up, somehow....

But, let's face it, the "monster's" money has spoken, simple as that.
Whether Waterstones will regret it, we shall see.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

But there would, presumably, be a reason nobody else wants them ?
Like, "that'll never sell", perhaps?

Like: "It's published by an Amazon subsidiary so we won't carry it."

Which B&N and a bunch of small US B&M retailers made a big fuss over a couple months back. Which is *not* going to be a significant issue in the UK, now.

[CommonReader]

What's the combined market share of Waterstones and Amazon of the UK book market, particularly looking at the ebook market? Isn't this something for an anti-trust investigation?

Originally Posted by Top100EbooksRank

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/05/20...e-chicken-run/

Thnka you for the link, even though I don't share your opinion or the opinion expressed by the linked blog.

From the link "The underlying strategy is to quit spending psychic energy and executive time trying to stop the Amazon tide and begin to figure out how to make money from Amazon".
That's nice blurb-speak but it ignores that Waterstones core business is selling books. Being succesful in the ebook market should therefore be a prime concern for the management. Instead, Waterstones has just reduced itself from independent major bookseller to junior partner in the very segment of the bookmarket with the highest growth rates. They are now comparable to those shops that sell e.g. mobile phones and phone contracts for companies like Vodafone for a commission. Customers handed over to Amazon are customers handed over for good. Because of Amazon's walled garden concept these customers aren't going to return, even if Waterstones should decide to cooperate with some other partner later on.
I cannot quite follow the argument that selling a reader of their own would have cost hundreds of millions GBP. An ebook-reader isn't exactly a new Airbus. They could have easily set up a cooperation with an existing manufacturer for a co-branded reader. The new Pocketbook Touch gets excellent reviews, to name just one option. They also have their own ebook shop already. Therefore where are those hundreds of millions coming from?
I just can not comprehend why Waterstones has failed to use its significant brand recognition in Europe by locking out all continental buyers. Amazon is happy to sell the very books that are supposedly geographically restricted to european customers.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

What's the combined market share of Waterstones and Amazon of the UK book market, particularly looking at the ebook market? Isn't this something for an anti-trust investigation?

My understanding is that having a monopoly isn't illegal, but abusing the power that the monopoly gives is. If Waterstones & Amazon (or even if one of them alone) has 99% of the market, that's OK. If they use that domination of the market to the detriment of customers, then they can be prosecuted under anti-trust laws.

As I say, that's my understanding. I may be wrong.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

That's nice blurb-speak but it ignores that Waterstones core business is selling books.

Maybe not.
Maybe Waterstone's core business is B&M retailing.
Try this:
http://eoinpurcellsblog.com/2011/10/...three-choices/

Indigo, by cashing in their Kobo equity, clearly is betting their future on retailing, not on books.
Waterstone's, without a viable ebook business of their own, is making a similar choice: cashing in their brand and customer traffic for the biggest return they could get.

Watertone's held an auction. They went with the highest bidder.
If the highest bidder had been Nook, nobody would be screaming bloody murder, would they? That is because the "offense" isn't the partnership: it is *who* they are partnering with.

Maybe they *are* selling their soul.
(Shrug)
It is *their* soul to sell.
If you're going to "sell your soul" anyway, might as well go with biggest devil and get the best deal. No sense selling yourself cheap.

Waterstone's is reinventing themselves, the Amazon money will come in handy.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

I'll take your word for it. 42,000 out of a population of over 33 million seemed really small to me, but I know nothing about these things. 1,000 seems very small.

I don't know how large a figure you need to draw reasonable conclusions from a survey, but 1,000 is quite common for basic surveys. The bigger issue is usually the quality of the sampling, i.e how those 1,000 people are selected can have a drastic impact on the accuracy of any conclusions draw from the data.

For example, it'd be utterly silly for anyone to sample 1,000 people asking do you buy/read ebooks, if that sample is drawn from 1,000 mobile read members

Surveys can be useful, but everyone needs to remain skeptical of conclusions drawn unless the raw data is available as well as details of how/when/where surveys were carried out.

Not saying the 42k sample is right or wrong, I've not looked at it and don't plan to, but people shouldn't take things at face value without questioning, just as you're questioning the sample size.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

I cannot quite follow the argument that selling a reader of their own would have cost hundreds of millions GBP. An ebook-reader isn't exactly a new Airbus.

B&N has spent hundreds of millions of dollars developing, marketing and updating the Nook. It's killing their bottom line; net income has been steadily nose-diving for several years, and the costs of the Nook are a big part of that.

They have to hire a team from scratch, make prototypes, test it, find manufacturers, order a run of units, integrate OTA delivery into their website, market it, and manage returns and customer service inquiries.

The development costs of the Airbus 350 are closer to £12 billion, by the way.

Originally Posted by CommonReader

They could have easily set up a cooperation with an existing manufacturer for a co-branded reader.

Yes, although that would have had many of the same costs, especially marketing.

Originally Posted by CommonReader

The new Pocketbook Touch gets excellent reviews, to name just one option. They also have their own ebook shop already. Therefore where are those hundreds of millions coming from?

From not doing any marketing, from not selling ebooks, from not needing to integrate book delivery to an existing website, and not needing to send 100 physical devices to every Waterstones store, to sit on the shelf until someone buys one.

[ProfCrash]

And take a look at the patent wars in the field of cell phones and tablets. While we have not seen anything nearly as bad in the e-reader arena, there have been a few minor disputes. So it is not as if they can simply take a part a Kindle or a Nook or a Sony and copy what their insides look like. They have to research what has been patented and what has not. Pay for the use of the patent and if the owner won't let them use it, develop a new way of doing the same thing.

I woul dbe surprised to see too many new entries into the e-reader market. At this point in time, the US market is probably saturated, the numbers do not seem to be picking up. Foreign markets seem to be slowly selling more devices but I have a feeling that the UK is close to saturation and that the rest of Europe won't be too far behind. So building a new e-reader and perparing to market it in a year or two will probably mean a huge flop.

The focus now is going to be on the e-book market. If the Kindle is the dominant reader in the UK, and it sounds like it is based on anecdotal reporting, then Waterstone having a EPub store is not going to do it much good. Since the Publishers are insisting on DRM and only Amazon sells its files with DRM that can be read on the Kindle, Waterstone found it self having to make a deal with Amazon to get in on the most lucrative e-book market in the country.

Waterstone could have gone it alone if the Publishers would simply get rid of DRM so that stores can sell EPUB and Mobi. Alas, the Publishers are idiots and have failed to do this. Maybe in a few years.

Right now, Waterstone was able to work out a favorable arrangement with Amazon and can get into the e-book market in a way that makes it some money. Maybe they use this time to build a great bookstore and when the Publishers finally go DRM free, Waterstone might be able to walk away from Amazon with an established reputation that will help it compete in the UK market.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Right now, Waterstone was able to work out a favorable arrangement with Amazon and can get into the e-book market in a way that makes it some money. Maybe they use this time to build a great bookstore and when the Publishers finally go DRM free, Waterstone might be able to walk away from Amazon with an established reputation that will help it compete in the UK market.

It's worth noting that Waterstones already has a pretty decent ePub bookstore. This is all about the B&M stores, rather than the ebookstore, I think.